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Old 12-24-2004, 02:38 PM   #1
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Default stock motor rules for 2005

will roar eventually get to a legal armature limit for 2005? i know they limit the wire size and length...but when will they acually get to the wieght issues. right now i have 11 stockers in my box.

(2) chrome orions, (3) core orions, (2)MVPs, (1) gm3 (2) monsters, (1) binary.

the first 8 were good in their day but since the monster and the binary...they don't even come close! and do you know why? weight! the binary and monster arms are significantly lighter! how much lighter? try comparing 67.3g's to 48g's! yes...my heaviest arm (chrome orion) was over 10grams heavier than my lightest. (binary w/ balancing holes).

that is why the epics are so much quicker than all the other makes. that's why most club racers use them. it's an unfair advantege! so i was just wondering if roar's gonna limit the weight of these armatures for next year? heck they did it with the "short-stack" scam that trinity started years ago. (leave it to ernie). they found a way to use shorter wire on an arm that LOOKS like a "normal" one. less wire- less weight...more speed. and it looks like they're at it again!!

to make THIS long story short...i propose with limit the weight of armatures to 42 grams. stock is suposed to be all about a level playing field right? well i think WE should take it one step further and kill this illegal EPIC "epi"-demic and bring stock motors back to where we all fight for them to be...EVEN!!!

SPEED ON!!!!!
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Old 12-24-2004, 02:42 PM   #2
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why do you want the weight to be change?? just go and get a light stock motor...lol...
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Old 12-24-2004, 02:45 PM   #3
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the lightest would be an epic. i like a little more variety. like....women
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Old 12-24-2004, 03:10 PM   #4
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I spoke to Mike Reedy about this at length a year ago. There are several issues surrounding this subject.

1. This is a non issue. If Reedy and Orion want to make a light arm they can. At this point they don't want to.

2. There is a lot more to motor performance than light arms. Lighter is not always better. The current trend in stick motors is high RPM and low torque. Arms with more iron mass will turn less rpm but develop more toque. Some one may release a low prm high torque stocker tomorrow that is was faster...with proper gearing than a Monster Stock.

3. The weighing of arms is problematic as most track don't have certified scales. Whats legal on one scale may not be legal on another.

4. The main reason for the current balabcing guide lines...you can drill 2 balancing holes on 2 poles with only one on a 3rd pole...is to stop people from lightening arms for faster spool up. This rule is quite effective and requires no scales.
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Old 12-24-2004, 05:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdrianM
I spoke to Mike Reedy about this at length a year ago. There are several issues surrounding this subject.

1. This is a non issue. If Reedy and Orion want to make a light arm they can. At this point they don't want to.

2. There is a lot more to motor performance than light arms. Lighter is not always better. The current trend in stick motors is high RPM and low torque. Arms with more iron mass will turn less rpm but develop more toque. Some one may release a low prm high torque stocker tomorrow that is was faster...with proper gearing than a Monster Stock.

3. The weighing of arms is problematic as most track don't have certified scales. Whats legal on one scale may not be legal on another.

4. The main reason for the current balabcing guide lines...you can drill 2 balancing holes on 2 poles with only one on a 3rd pole...is to stop people from lightening arms for faster spool up. This rule is quite effective and requires no scales.
All of this is true, but more revs means different gearing and you get mechanical torque....

The thing about higher revs is less current and less heat... that makes the motor run more efficiently for longer...

All of that gives a slight edge the dyno doesnt tell you...

But as said previously all the other motor people can do it...

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Old 12-24-2004, 05:45 PM   #6
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Someone make a better stock so I don't have to run Trinity crap to be competative
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Old 12-24-2004, 06:38 PM   #7
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Part of the reason the EPICS are lighter is shorter wire length. I bet if yuou unwind one, you willd find less wire than in the others. In fact I bet you will find the wire length to be less than the minumum the rules allow...
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Old 12-24-2004, 06:51 PM   #8
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Geez..... come on Rick. Orion can make any arm weight, style etc that they want.... just copy the Epic arm if its so good or better yet come up with something even faster.
I dont care what brand motor I race... all I care about is running the fastest one out there and right now its the Epic.
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Old 12-24-2004, 08:14 PM   #9
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I agree with ottoman, I want to run the fastest motor out there, and it happens to be the epic motors. I had an MVP that was an absolute turd, Reedy just hasn't made a good stock motor in years. The orion stock motors are good on some track still, I still have a couple of cores laying around.
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Old 12-24-2004, 10:25 PM   #10
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whoa!!! i NEVER thought i'd have national champs on this board!!! this is great!!

yeah....when i started racing dirt oval in the late 80's we had a descent selection of stockers. then when it really boomed (in my region)...we had motors from AIR SUPPLY, HPI, AYK, YOK,EPIC, PARMA and some i can't think of at the moment. but my piont is, we had a selection: the tork motors vs. the revvers (even feild). but here now lately it seems the revvers have taken over. now mind you, i was a "tork" man for years. (at least until the monster came out). IMO...there were no motors out there better than the HACKATTACK from race-prep. gobs of tork.

but rule changes and politics made it illegal. ya know...the no epoxy rule and no retro- fits. and get this..the same company that really cried to ban the motor is producing one with more rule infractions than the one it had outlawed!!! {to those of you who don't know...yes i'm talking about trinity and the problem they had with the PZ-5R. this motor was a huge threat to the current crop of motors trinity had back then. so much of a threat that they had it banned}.

all of the above posts are very good. but let's just look at things at face value......TRUE trinity has "bent" a few rules in the past. but speed is speed! and that's what they sell. so do you wanna break the track record or brak the rulebook?

oh..and blackcat, the gen1 orion stocker was very close to the epic p2k. (they both had similar "Z" speed arms) the epic's was stamped laminations assembled together while the orion had regular lams' but was it was "power machined" to get it's profile. very fast!!! but.......we all know the rest of the story! so in fact, someone did make a better stock motor (again) but the power's-that-be seems to like this....stock motor monopoly thingy.

oh and MERRY CHRISTMAS Y'ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-24-2004, 10:54 PM   #11
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Pete, Nomaak... I wouldn't call it a Monopoly. Like others have suggested.. all the other companies would have to do it build a faster motor like we would want. Or at least try to build a high rpm motor instead of torque ones. Now I would prefer an Orion motor.. and I ran the Core Stock in the past when the Green Machine was the "hot" ticket. But now it's the Monster Stock and Epic Roar Stock. So that's what I run. I've even tried the GM motors and got one good run on them. But that's about it.

One question... why doesn't Orion or Reedy build a motor with large cooling vents like a Green Machine and/or Monster Stock? Just curious on that one.
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Old 12-24-2004, 11:01 PM   #12
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The biggest problem Reedy and Orion face is the Japanese copyrights on the armature lamination that TokyoMec/Epic own. The key to the speed of Epic stockers is the stepped crowns on the arm poles. Sagami (Reedy and Orion's arm manufacturer) can't legally duplicated them so they have to work around the arms. However, that dosen't mean they aren't working on new stuff...they are...they always are
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Old 12-24-2004, 11:07 PM   #13
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Adrian: You know everything...you rock bro :P

Anyone hear anything about Trinity's "new" stock that was supposedly designed by Big Jim himself?
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Old 12-25-2004, 12:00 AM   #14
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jimmy...'sup bro!!! by monopoly i meant EPIC in general. it's no big secret that stock is the most popular class in most of our racing venues....club/local, regional, so-on & so-on. and it's no big secret that the EPIC based stocker are what you ran. (or you get left). i wish i could answer that question of yours too. be for some reason...reedy and top thinks what works for mod (can wise) is fine for stock. IMO their magnets are TOO GOOD for stock! that's what kills them! i hate to say it but....they need to take the route EPIC took. their stock and mod motors look nothing alike. (again can wise) but i do know that having more vents in the can "deadens" the magnetic feild "hold" on the armature. this reduces tork but frees up rpm.

it's funny how epic stockers are on top but their mods seems to be lacking. then on the flip side....the reedy/top mods are king but their stockers could use an upgrade. LOL. Ahhh the Tao of life flows even in rc. like YIN & YANG. there always seems to some sort of balance. (ok...no more bruce lee movies for me!! LMBO)
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Old 12-25-2004, 12:09 AM   #15
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adrian...you mentioned about copyrights and stuff earlier. i'm glad you did. i was alway curious why ATLAS/REEDY/ORION used lams' with holes through them. i always figured....."why not just step the crown down or use a reverse tapper design?" but i think the reverse taper design is STILL copyrighted by MAXTEC right? if so then that would be crazy 'cause they're no longer in business.
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