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Old 12-27-2004, 12:11 PM   #46
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trf racer-you missed the point and Tmoney got it.

Give me your opinion on this-

Racers with sponsorship from a motor tuner are going to get better motors than the average racer that has to just buy them off the wall at the LHS.Motor tuners buy their motors in bulk in teardown form from the manufacturer.Since all stock motors are machine wound there is a lot of variance in them.When a motor tuner gets say 100 motors he is going to go thru them and pick out the best armatures-the ones with the neatest windings,the most even per pole,with the closest resistance per pole.Then he will zap the magnets in the best cans that he got and then put those "best of everything" motors together and SAVE THEM FOR HIS SPONSORED DRIVERS.As in not offer them for sale.If you are a sponsored driver(are you?)then you are perfectly legal by the letter of the rules but still have an unfair advantage.Same for battery sponsorships and so on.That is perfectly allright at the regional/national/worlds level but to take that level of equipment to a local race where no one else has it? It's legal,but not really sporting is it?

The point is that the rules are bad in stock and don't work in favor of the good of the hobby.Stock isn't stock-anyone who has had any exposure to what it takes to build a competitve NHRA Stock Eliminator or SCCA Showroom Stock motor knows what I'm talking about-it's the same thing.
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Old 12-27-2004, 12:19 PM   #47
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I'm all for leveling the playing field, but limiting the weight isn't going to slow down the technology war. They'll just put money in to working around it. Which means that another issue will rise. I think just going lighter will evently peak itself out and it will come to an end by evolution of technology where the tourque is so affected that lightness will be standardized or limited do to physics and practicality.
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Old 12-27-2004, 12:56 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrOlds
SCCA Showroom Stock motor knows what I'm talking about-it's the same thing. [/B]
OH, you mean like wen we used to bondo the plugs on our 280 engines and put them in our 240's. J/k never did it but new how and had been accused many times until tear down's.

I undstand your guys delima but lets also talk cash. IN my LHS is a Putnam Prepared STOCK motor for $47.99!! This is bull_____! I refuse to pay this. I thought stcok was desighned to keep prices down for they club racer?

The other thing I was wondering about was who the HELLo taught the people to shim the EPIC's I haven't had one that was even close yet. If your going to charge a but load for a "PRO" motor then why not at least make it worth a crap?
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Old 12-27-2004, 01:46 PM   #49
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If you race at a track that goes by ROAR rules, that 47.00 motor is illegal. In ROAR rule 5-29 the max retail price for a stock motor is 40.00. This includes any aftermarket tuning and/or preparation.
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Old 12-27-2004, 01:57 PM   #50
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Actually, its not....those retail price rules only apply to the manufacture of the motor, ie....trinity, orion, or reedy...

There is No way to enforce it on an aftermarket tuner like putnam, as there is no way to tell his monster from mine or from trinity....except the sticker......and then, all the racer would have to do is pull the sticker off since there is no ROAR rules requiring a ID sticker on the motor....

The $40 price is in the stone age anyways....it should be raised, not so motor companies can make more money, but so we can make a better motor...

The intial price of the motor isn't really where the budget part of stock is....its in the fact the motors last longer, use less parts (yes, you CAN run stock brushes more than 1 run, even at a national event), and less parts wear and breakage on your car....


And Rick is 100% correct, bearings won't make a stock motor any faster....they will last longer and they are a HELL of a lot easier to work with than a bushing is....trust me, I have run it on a dyno numerous times.....

If you want faster motors that are more reliable and last longer, email ROAR and tell them to update the stone age rules they have in place that really handcuffs motor companies from pushing the envelope...

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Old 12-27-2004, 02:07 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by PaintingRoly
(V)r>?- Do you know who Rick is? I really doubt that many more people know more about electric motors than Rick.

Rick Howart knows more than most that have posted here yet they tend to question him. Not sure why but there is a reason Peak Performance has lasted throughout the years. I see alot of good comments in here and yes Rick the EPIC ARMS do have less windings and they should be relooked at by ROAR since obviously thier sample lot they sent was correct, and somehow it got shortened after that... Course just break down the abbreviation for EPIC and that will explain it.
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:12 PM   #52
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Most tracks only loosely use ROAR rules. My local track never weighs cars, lets you slam the bodies as low as you want, allows full size rear wings and rarely techs motors. Nobody that wins cheats so its not a problem.
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:32 PM   #53
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If you do something that is illegal by the letter of the rules but does not give you an uncompetitve(unfair)advantage then you are still playing within the SPIRIT of the rules
Unreal..

Im sorry oficer .. yes i was shooting at you.. but since i didnt hit you, i was following the spirit of the law...


I race at 5 tracks... we follow roar rules to the T.. no one cheats.. WHY?? because if you are caught cheating, you get a free ride out of the place... we run roar rules, because our caliber of drivers, run big races... we run the same rules as the big races, so when it come time for the real deal. we are ready... we dont have fun classes for whatever you want to run..

If your allowed to cheat at your track then that is fine.. that says alot about what type of track it is... and what kind of people race there...

when it all boils down its cheating... do you think when someone gets caught in nascar, they can say well it was in the spirit of the rules... ummm no...
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:34 PM   #54
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I have a dyno and I can second that Pro Trinity and Fantom motors both Stock and 19T suck out of the box.

For I.E.

My pro 19T from Fantom.... the label on it was reading 22,500 RPM

ON my dyno it read 19,000. I wasn't surprised as much as I was pissed and mad.

Com was not round... it took 3 cuts to get it round, Brushes where wearing way off center, shimmed wrong...after fixing there 3 issues and letting the brushed it came with stock brake it again it did 23,000 RPM vs. 19,000 out of the box.

I won't even bother buying the PRO versions anymore, they seem to be very false.


IE #2.

My friend has this Fantom Monster Stock and the label on it was reading lots of torque and 21,000 RPM...anyway he tord me the motor had no bottom end. So I dynod it and the RPM reading was 22,900 RPM.... this is 2000 RPM more than the label said and my friend kept on gearing this motor wrong because the stock label had the Torque numbe higher than all the other stock motors around. What's funny is that this is the highest RPM I have ever seen a Monster do.

I know RPM tells you how to gear your motor but it is a big factor in overal motor performance.
.................................................. .............

This is very funny. Did you know that NO TWO DYNOS will give the same numbers for the same exact motor? There are way too many variables to deal to ensure that you'll get the same numbers from dyno to dyno.

I have several friends with Fantom dynos, and each and every one of them will read a motor differently, some are on the generous side and others are downright cruel. The only dyno data you can use to compare motors is data from YOUR OWN DYNO. You can compare labels in the store, but you can't compare your numbers to the numbers on the labels because you don't use the same machine. l
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:42 PM   #55
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Quote:
Racers with sponsorship from a motor tuner are going to get better motors than the average racer that has to just buy them off the wall at the LHS.Motor tuners buy their motors in bulk in teardown form from the manufacturer.Since all stock motors are machine wound there is a lot of variance in them.When a motor tuner gets say 100 motors he is going to go thru them and pick out the best armatures-the ones with the neatest windings,the most even per pole,with the closest resistance per pole.Then he will zap the magnets in the best cans that he got and then put those "best of everything" motors together and SAVE THEM FOR HIS SPONSORED DRIVERS.As in not offer them for sale.If you are a sponsored driver(are you?)then you are perfectly legal by the letter of the rules but still have an unfair advantage.Same for battery sponsorships and so on.That is perfectly allright at the regional/national/worlds level but to take that level of equipment to a local race where no one else has it? It's legal,but not really sporting is it?

what you fail to see in stock is this,,, no matter how good your motor is, unless you car is awesome, not good... you wont feel a difference.. the same goes for killer batteries.. if your car is not efficient.. you will eat thrugh any extra advantage you have in the first minute...

most of our track records, are st by people with average every day stuff.. no team drivers ect...

our outdoor track, stock record is held by a guy in his 50's no sponsorship.. and the guy who won stock at the paved nats has no sponsorship, and he is in his 50's..

the key to threre wins were not motors or batteries,, but tuning... no matter how good your car feels, it will never be perfect.. it always can be better... when it is.. then you wont need to cheat... you wil be able to win on skill and tuning.. even against the cheaters
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:53 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by burbs
Unreal..

we dont have fun classes
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Old 12-27-2004, 03:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
we dont have fun classes for whatever you want to run
why not quote the whole phrase....
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Old 12-27-2004, 03:39 PM   #58
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adrian...i need to race where you race.LOL

once again, i'd like to thank all the racers who spent the time to read and post here. there's been a lot of good points made. but Ms. Clause has given me a big surprise. she got me a pro4, some monsters and some binaries. . i had no idea she was listening to me these last couple of weeks.

so if i get the car built in time, i'm gonna try out what "the other guys" run. i prefer the tork motors but this week-end will belong to the epics.
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Old 12-27-2004, 04:27 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
Part of the reason the EPICS are lighter is shorter wire length. I bet if yuou unwind one, you willd find less wire than in the others. In fact I bet you will find the wire length to be less than the minumum the rules allow...

I decided to ruin a few stock motors

Core Stock
Arm weight:39g
Wraps: 27 turns
Wire Length: 65 inches

Green Machine 2 Pro
Arm weight:36g
Wraps: 27 turns
Wire Length: 63 3/4*
* We couldn't get the wire perfectly straight but by my guesstimate it would be 64"

Binary 2 <EDIT THIS MOTOR ISN'T ROAR APPROVED ANYWAY>
Arm weight:35g
Wraps: 27 turns
Wire Length: 62 1/2

They seem pretty close to me and the only one in question would be the one that I can't find is legal to begin with...but that was their campaign for the motor...illegal and faster!

Honestly, if it's a handout race...do the rules matter since we all run the same motor? And if you're club racing you should buy the faster one.

Ans since it seems EVERY racing organization in the world is using the motors at that spec (although I'm can't find another B2 to check) again it doesn't really matter.
***EDIT The Binary isn't legal to worry about


and yet another reason I never run stock. Cheating or not, it's slow and sucks

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Last edited by DerekB; 12-27-2004 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 12-27-2004, 04:33 PM   #60
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Quote:
..and yet another reason I never run stock. Cheating or not it slow and sucks

Mod-4-life. [/B]
Thats what I'm saying! With Orion V2's or Reedy Ti's with 777 brushes you have less motor maintenance in mod too! As long as your packs are 390sec+ you will make time. Voltage is not as big a deal since you generally have too much rip anyways!

Mod-4-life...
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