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Old 12-28-2011, 04:56 PM   #16
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Like I said just 8mins and the gearing cannot be aggressive, and forget about it with any motor lower than 17.5. Think back to the days when a driver did'nt dare turn on the car untill the last moment, you checked the trim by giving it a push not pulling the trigger . But one of the advantages is that if you dump no worries about them exploding into a fire. Again this is just outside the box thinking not for the mainstream. I only run them for fun, if I'm racing I use my 1s car. This could be an option for someone looking to use an old car on the cheap against a 13.5 blinky class. Would'nt be fair in a 17.5 class as these cells have way more rip than 1s.
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:42 PM   #17
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The problem isn't being able to finish the 8 minute race, the problem is being able to keep at a racing pace for the entire 8 minute race. I've ran 1/12th scale off and on for 10 years now and have seen a lot of changes in the cars and the electronics that we are using. When I started we were using 3000 nimh batteries and 27T brushed motors. The old motors weren't as efficient, and back in the day you had to drive with a lot more throttle control to finish the race. Today with the new motor and battery technology we can drive flat out for the entire 8 minutes.
This isn't the point, nor about how much speed 4 cell brushless has compared with 1S, the point is that a lot of clubs just don't allow nimh cells any more even for a beginners/novice class to get people into 1/12th on the cheap.
It's nothing to do with whether a 4 cell car will keep up with 1S cars, whether 4 cell cars could go faster or whether you have to be more careful to get a 4 cell car to the end of a race, it's entirely about allowing new racers a cheap way into the class using old cars and electrics that don't cost much to pick up second hand. So what if you can't run 4cell hard for the full eight minutes, neither can anyone else in the class and if that was the case it would teach new drivers proper throttle control to ensure they last.

If people are afraid that experienced 1/12th racers might drop into 4 cell because they can go faster with a modern car then you are missing the point entirely, and clubs can always restrict what motor can be used or what minimum weight the cars have. Sticking a 1000kg minimum weight on them for example would mean they are never going to match a 1S car.

As an example in the UK our WorldGT cars run together with both 1S 10.5 and 2S 17.5 in one championship, the BRCA regulates the minimum weights so one class has no advantage over the other. If equality can be found between 1S and 2S pan cars then it shouldn't take too much to even out or limit the performance of 4 cell 1/12ths.

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We are now running 6500mah lipo batteries, because of the higher capacity of the new battery with its lower weight the battery is able to stay at a higher voltage longer, the car has less weight to move but has less voltage.
Your point is that we are using 6500mah lipos just to get that tiny bit extra voltage for those fractions of a second on your lap times, and no doubt when they bring out 7000mah lipos racers will be buying them for that extra hundredth of a volt extra average voltage as you don't use anywhere near the capacity of the pack during a race. It's not adding 2 or 3 laps to your lap score. If this chasing the smallest fractions of performance by making sure you have the latest equipment is your thing, then trying to compete with a 10 year old car isn't something you would be interested in.

The point argued against the suggestion is that 4 cell has a higher voltage as everyone can see the difference between 4.8v and 3.7v, yet the high capacity lipos used these days means they are running a race at an average very near the fully charged 4.2v. Throw in the extra voltage drop in nimh under load and the extra weight of 4 cells you are actually likely to be getting more car performance out of a 1S pack.

The extra voltage of 4 cell isn't the point, it's entirely about getting new racers into 1/12th on the cheap. If clubs insist people run 1S then the new racer needs a 1S lipo that they can't run in any other class and a 1S compatible ESC or a booster with either mounting the lipo on one side of the old car or buying a new car. If people can start with 4 cell then for most it's $20-25 for a nimh pack and any old radio gear they have which usually works happily on 4.8v. With the much more efficient brushless motors we use now then even 3000mah cells should manage 8 minutes easily.

I am a prime example of the people this idea is aimed at. I used to run 1/12th and have an Associated RC12L3 and CRC Six-Pack on a shelf which I could race, as well as plenty of spare electrics from racing touring cars and F1s these days. I know some clubs would let me put them together with a 4 cell pack to run for fun, but there are many clubs that wouldn't allow it unless I squeezed a 1S in there, which means I couldn't use my spare old original Novak GTB without adding a booster and maybe a lipo cutoff or buying a new ESC which I would be loathe to do for something that I would just run occasionally.

It's the same as when new racers turn up at a touring car club and ask what they need to get started and they are told they need an expensive chassis, a high end ESC and motor and a high C rated lipo. In reality all they actually need to get started is a ready to run package with its 540 motor and cheap nimhs which are technically illegal for racing, and if they get into it then they can spend money on all the extras. Time after time I see the kids who turn up with basic cars which they then upgrade over time are the ones that stick around, the ones that throw their wallet at the same equipment the experts use are the ones that get disillusioned when they find they haven't bought the skills to match and are getting beat by the kids with the cheap cars that are easier to drive and set up.

Allowing 4 cell in 1/12th again is like allowing novices to start with cheap RTRs, it gets people into the class with second hand chassis you can pick up for $25 on ebay and cheap old electrics that aren't necessarily lipo compatible. Then if they want to stick with 1/12th they can sell on the old car and cells and upgrade to a modern car.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:26 PM   #18
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When has 1/12th scale ever been a class for beginners? That is my point, this class has never been a class for beginners.

If cost is the issue let's do a comparison with the unique things needed for each type of car:

LIPO Car
$185 for car (crc gen xi)
Battery $60

Total: $245

NIMH Car
T-Bar car $60-$100 (ebay RC12L4, the only $25 cars I could find like you said was an RC12L, I think they won the worlds with that car in 1988)
Battery $30 x 3-4 packs = $90-$120
Discharger $50

Total: $200-$270

The ESC, body, tires, radio and charger can be used with either setup. Tires ware faster on the NIMH cars due to the added weight adding to the cost of the cars. With LIPO you can run the same battery all day at a club race and be competitive, with NIMH batteries you can't/shouldn't. It isn't recommended for that type of battery to be ran more than once a race day to maintain optimal performance from those batteries.

Again, when has 1/12th scale ever been a beginner class?
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:43 PM   #19
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Great thread. Just to state a fact that we stopped further development and production of our 1S saddle pack solely due to the influx of purely link cars. We figured demand would eventually drop since there is no company producing a t-bar car anymore.

I am happy and proud that we were the only company to develop and produce a 1S hard case saddle pack. I did it in the hopes of keeping the t-bar cars alive and well.

After reading this tread, we may re-visit reproduction of the saddle pack. I would love to hear some feedback.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:13 PM   #20
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When has 1/12th scale ever been a class for beginners? That is my point, this class has never been a class for beginners.
1985 when I started racing, but seriously, back then there was no off-road, it was(in this area anyway) 1/8 gas or 1/12. So as a beginner I started in 1/12 with a 12i. It can be a class for beginners if your local track/club promotes and encourages a starter class.

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Originally Posted by Gavin Creado View Post
Great thread. Just to state a fact that we stopped further development and production of our 1S saddle pack solely due to the influx of purely link cars. We figured demand would eventually drop since there is no company producing a t-bar car anymore.

I am happy and proud that we were the only company to develop and produce a 1S hard case saddle pack. I did it in the hopes of keeping the t-bar cars alive and well.

After reading this tread, we may re-visit reproduction of the saddle pack. I would love to hear some feedback.
I love my 1s saddle pack and use it in my serpent T-bar car; and I would love to see you do another run of 1s saddle packs. When you first contacted me and asked my thoughts as to the viability of a 1s saddle pack I told you then that I felt you have a window of opportunity, but that window is closing as most racers have made the move to link style cars. So at this point I'm not sure if it would make good sense from a business standpoint.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
Time after time I see the kids who turn up with basic cars which they then upgrade over time are the ones that stick around, the ones that throw their wallet at the same equipment the experts use are the ones that get disillusioned when they find they haven't bought the skills to match and are getting beat by the kids with the cheap cars that are easier to drive and set up.
That is the real magic formula of "Short Course" that the onroad crowd doesn't see. I'm glad you pointed it out.

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When has 1/12th scale ever been a class for beginners? That is my point, this class has never been a class for beginners.
Funny how you would say that when some of the hardcore pan guys commented here, http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...ifference.html Claiming how pan is so cheap and easy compared to touring.

So from the logic of your comment with that thread, nothing in onroad is for beginners?

I remember a time when 1/12 was a couple of spings in the front, a flexi chassis in the rear and maybe a diff. People were able to run with it and drive the tires off the wheels and have a lot of fun.

Technology changed but its suppose to make things easier not harder.

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Originally Posted by Gavin Creado View Post
Great thread. Just to state a fact that we stopped further development and production of our 1S saddle pack solely due to the influx of purely link cars. We figured demand would eventually drop since there is no company producing a t-bar car anymore.

I am happy and proud that we were the only company to develop and produce a 1S hard case saddle pack. I did it in the hopes of keeping the t-bar cars alive and well.

After reading this tread, we may re-visit reproduction of the saddle pack. I would love to hear some feedback.
Wow! I'm glad I got your attention. Perhaps if you can bring it back but also bring a booster to the product line that works well with all speedos. The Novak one is buggy and the TQ booster I've heard was good but its only available from their website which doesn't work so well.

I just checked Stormer for boosters and both the Novak and the Stormer 1s booster is out of stock. Not sure if that is just temporary or permanent.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:05 PM   #22
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Buy these http://www.hobbypartz.com/98p-25c-4800-2s3p-saddle.html and be done with your squabble. You must look closely, because they are in fact two 1s battery's.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:58 PM   #23
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Buy these http://www.hobbypartz.com/98p-25c-4800-2s3p-saddle.html and be done with your squabble. You must look closely, because they are in fact two 1s battery's.
Two batteries for the price of one. Sounds like a great idea. Much more compact than a typical 1s pack. Looks like that could fit better on one side of the T-plate.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:31 AM   #24
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When has 1/12th scale ever been a class for beginners? That is my point, this class has never been a class for beginners.
As with others, I also started in 1979 with 1/12th being the only electric class and today strangely enough any 1/12th clubs near me don't turn people away because they are beginners, in fact all over the UK they are trying to encourage beginners by clubs putting together old T-bar cars with cells in them to lend out to beginners so they can have a go. It's a somewhat elitist attitude to take to decide it's a class only for experienced drivers.

The original point is not that it's for beginners even though that's a good side effect of allowing 4 cell cars to run. The original point is that old experienced racers with old cars on the shelf can dig then out and try racing again with what equipment they already have, rather than preventing them from trying again unless they bought all new. Then if they want to stick with it they can buy modern equipment.

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If cost is the issue let's do a comparison with the unique things needed for each type of car:

LIPO Car
$185 for car (crc gen xi)
Battery $60

Total: $245

NIMH Car
T-Bar car $60-$100 (ebay RC12L4, the only $25 cars I could find like you said was an RC12L, I think they won the worlds with that car in 1988)
Battery $30 x 3-4 packs = $90-$120
Discharger $50

Total: $200-$270
Now lets look at that from a beginners/fun racers point of view, rather than a more serious racers point of view.

LIPO Car
$185 for car (crc gen xi)
Battery $60

Total: $245

NIMH Car
T-Bar car $25-50 Nothing wrong with an RC12L or L3, no need to buy an L4
I just sold a brand new unrun Corally SP12M for all of $60.
Battery $30 x 2 packs = $60. One to charge/top up while one to run
Discharger $0 Which modern nimh charger doesn't include a discharge function, or $10 for a basic pack discharger.

Also if it's an old racer coming back who still has his old charger it will do to get him going with nimhs, while he would have to buy a new charger if he wants to run lipo. Considering more 'newbies' at my local club are people who raced in 10=20 years ago who are getting back into the hobby they are more likely to have old equipment knocking around.

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The ESC, body, tires, radio and charger can be used with either setup. Tires ware faster on the NIMH cars due to the added weight adding to the cost of the cars. With LIPO you can run the same battery all day at a club race and be competitive, with NIMH batteries you can't/shouldn't. It isn't recommended for that type of battery to be ran more than once a race day to maintain optimal performance from those batteries.
Isn't the point tyres wore faster with the old heavier cars a bit of a red herring, while the old cars could run bigger tyres so getting more wear from them most modern cars only seem to work at their best when you true the tyres down to almost nothing.

The point is to get more people racing, not telling them they need a whole ton of equipment. Amazing to some people, but nimhs can be charged more than once a day and don't need to be discharged between top ups without blowing up. At my local club we even have kids who start with a single 2400mah nimh pack and they manage to run all night in their basic tourers topping it up between heats, while strangely enough there are thousands of bashers who find their cars still work when they just charge up their cells as soon as they stop running and two packs can keep them running all day.

Sure we all know the performance drops off if you top up the nimh pack but that isn't the point, it's just to get people running again. Those worrying about tiny fractions of performance (nimh packs don't go 2-3 laps slower when you top them up) then this proposal isn't for you. The people this is aimed at will get better lap times by learning to not hit things.

We used to have several on road clubs in my area, most were of the attitude that you needed race legal batteries and motors and drivers always had to have the latest equipment to keep up with everyone else. Now we have only one local club, whose attitude is that beginners can run whatever they want and for most weekly club nights for everyone having fun is more important than lap times. Strange as it may seem, all the others shut down due to not getting any new members in to keep the clubs going.

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Again, when has 1/12th scale ever been a beginner class?
Again, do you really want to prevent beginners/old racers from getting into 1/12th cheaply and increasing the number of 1/12th racers?
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:35 AM   #25
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Buy these http://www.hobbypartz.com/98p-25c-4800-2s3p-saddle.html and be done with your squabble. You must look closely, because they are in fact two 1s battery's.
It has always amazed me that the latest 'innovation' in 1/12th is special 1S shorty packs, while they happen to be the same size as single cells in 2S saddle packs which gives you two packs for the same cost as a 1S shorty.
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:47 AM   #26
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I want to poiint out that its battery technology that drove T-plate cars away.

T-plate and link cars have been around for a long time. Its just that the 1s lipo packs could not be accomodated on t-plate designs. However, old link cars are still in fashion.

The t-plate chassis is still a good working chassis, suspension wise. In fact the t-plate vs. link argument has been done many times long ago. Many I've heard preferred the t-plate over the link because they found it easier to drive and setup over various surfaces from asphalt to carpet. Even TA stuck with the t-plate for the longest time until they had to give in to the link setup because of battery technology.

When battery technology can be accomodated on t-plate cars, like a more compact saddle 1s (Hint), I'm sure t-plate designs will be re-visited again.

Just look at 1/12 front ends. From basic to reactive caster to fully independent and now back to basic again(see SpeedMerchant and Tamiya).
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:54 PM   #27
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you guys are aware that they make 1s lipo saddle packs right ?
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Gavin Creado View Post
Great thread. Just to state a fact that we stopped further development and production of our 1S saddle pack solely due to the influx of purely link cars. We figured demand would eventually drop since there is no company producing a t-bar car anymore.

I am happy and proud that we were the only company to develop and produce a 1S hard case saddle pack. I did it in the hopes of keeping the t-bar cars alive and well.

After reading this tread, we may re-visit reproduction of the saddle pack. I would love to hear some feedback.
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you guys are aware that they make 1s lipo saddle packs right ?
Are you sure about that ?
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:25 PM   #29
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Are you sure about that ?
http://www.hobbypartz.com/98p-25c-4800-2s3p-saddle.html
Yep
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:43 PM   #30
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Um, that's a 2S 7.4V saddle pack, not a 1S 3.7V pack used in 1/12th scale.

I have a 12L4 that I purchased (new) years ago and I would love to try out 12th scale racing if I could (without going to the expense of buying a 12R5.1). I e-mailed Speedzone months ago asking if they had any plans to re-release their 1S saddle pack, and never received a reply. If you're listening, I would still love to see this happen

I believe that Gil Losi Jnr helped design the T Bar chassis - can anyone confirm that ?
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