R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Like Tree1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-21-2011, 11:27 AM   #16
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,185
Default

If they could make rubber tires hook up as good as foams I'd be all for it...problem is they don't. Also a big part of what makes 1/12th what it is is that it doesn't use the same type of bodies you see in TC...leave that for the mini class.
InspGadgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 11:51 AM   #17
Tech Master
 
miller tyme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,709
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
12th rubber tires = ...lol
+1

part of the attraction for me is the precision with which 12th can be driven. It simply is not possible with rubber tires, there heavier effecting acceleration, high axle height affecting atability, and even the best rubber tire drivers are luck if 2 cars get through the same turn together.
__________________
Ken Miller
RCTarget - Capricorn - Pro Level RC - MAX Power - Maxima Fuel - EA Motorsorts - TQ Wire

LONG LIVE OPEN MODIFIED
miller tyme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 11:52 AM   #18
Tech Master
 
superspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,148
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default

pan: foam
non-pan: rubber

don't change rules.
superspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 11:58 AM   #19
avs
Tech Master
 
avs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,175
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
+1

part of the attraction for me is the precision with which 12th can be driven. It simply is not possible with rubber tires, there heavier effecting acceleration, high axle height affecting atability, and even the best rubber tire drivers are luck if 2 cars get through the same turn together.
just curious, what about capped foams like they use in oval?

i realize they would be a little heavier, but how do they handle on a road course?
__________________
Tony Shimko
avs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 11:59 AM   #20
Tech Champion
 
Matt Howard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Abilene TX
Posts: 5,952
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by superspeed View Post
pan: foam
non-pan: rubber

don't change rules.
agreed. 1/12 is pretty much the one class no one complains about, just leave it be, no need to reinvent the class or add another sub-class.
__________________
Official member of The Guild of Calamitous Intent and proud supporter of Conjectural Technologies.
Serpent S411 LE kit #192
RCTech #361
Matt Howard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 12:00 PM   #21
Tech Champion
 
YR4Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: So Cal
Posts: 5,625
Trader Rating: 44 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
There is already a 12th scale rubber tire class that is very popular in the states.
It's called Mini, you should check it out....
Its no comparison to the Yokomo GT500 and the Kawada M300GT. The closest thing to GT with a Mini type chassis would be the HPI Cup Racer but that didn't take off so well.

The problem with the Mini class that are more GT oriented is that they're just a mini version of a TC with all the shocks and 4WD like a TC. Not quite the simplicity people are attracted to in a pan car which is what the Yokomo and the Kawada are. If the "A" Team can bring a converted 12R5 version of the 1/12GT here in the US, others like Tamiya could follow if not the other way around with a GT version of the upcoming RM-01.
YR4Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 12:02 PM   #22
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

At least with the rubber/foam argument in TC there was plenty of real-world data indicating the speed and handling differences between the two. An argument could be made for one or the other.

To say rubber 1/12 tires (caps are not the same as rubber) won't work without ever having seen or tried them is jumping the gun a bit.

World GT should have been a rubber tire class.
__________________
www.reedypower.com
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 12:52 PM   #23
Tech Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 55
Default

I don't like 1/12. Because I think the handling is very unrealistical. I have watched them closely to try to understand, I even drove them many years ago.

I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
BJS414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 12:54 PM   #24
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,185
Default

BSR has a rubber capped tire that they list as use for asphalt...haven't tried em though.

However after running rubber tires for many years in pan cars on F1 cars I definitely don't like the current rubber tires for pan cars as they are basically the same compound as TC tires so they just don't work well for pan cars. Tamiya had a rubber cap compound we used to glue over the foams to get better grip on asphalt. The rubber was super sticky and wore much quicker than TC rubber...but the grip was pretty good. If companies were to go more in that direction for rubber tires for pan cars I think it could work. Problem is manufacturers are much more likely to use what is already available (TC tires) rather than go out on a limb and research something that could be truly evolutionary.
InspGadgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 01:02 PM   #25
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,419
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post

World GT should have been a rubber tire class.
Just wondering if they ever tried this?
__________________
Gary Lanzer
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 01:12 PM   #26
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

What about a rubber tire that doesn't have an insert? Like just a slab of rubber glued to a rim like the mini-z guys use?
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 01:51 PM   #27
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,185
Default

When I spoke with someone from Sweep at the IIC a couple years ago they said they had a 1/12th rubber tire in development...not sure what happened to it. Perhaps someone could find out.
InspGadgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 02:16 PM   #28
Tech Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 900
Default

It's been tried here in the UK several times, and it doesn't work. Here's the best explanation we can come up with. It's maybe not definitive, but it always fits the facts when we try rubber tyres...

A rubber tyre with a complete carcass, like those used in TC, has a single slip angle. Once you go beyond it, the sliding friction is so much less than the static friction that the car has to slow a lot before you regain grip.

A rubber cap tyre is more like a low-profile road tyre - although it still has a single slip angle, it is so stiff that the balance between grip and slide is a very narrow line that is easy to cross. The usual rule of thumb for a road tyre is that once the length of the contact patch is less than the width, the tyre behaves differently and is harder to drive as it doesn't telegraph its intentions slow enough for the average driver.

The suspension geometry required for a rubber tyre would try, in general, to maintain the contact patch on a single trajectory so that the whole patch is generally on a turning radius with the centre of the contact patch going through the radius of the turn. On Pan cars there is a lot of tyre scrub due to the tight turning radius compared to the width of the rear tyres, and the suspension offset due to the position of the kingpin and the trail of the axle. In other words, the very act of turning the car causes parts of the tyre to slip anyway, reducing the grip whatever speed you are traveling. This just makes the whole situation worse for getting a balance of grip.

A foam tyre is made up of thousands of individual pieces in contact with the track, all of which have their own slip angle - the tyre does not behave as one homogenous unit, but rather thousands of little units - like little contact patches. Whilst some are slipping, other are gripping. That allows us to drive the cars hard, and when we lose grip it is slow and progressive. We would argue (without any data!) that unless you do something idiotic (like turn full lock at top speed) it is almost impossible to completely lose grip at either end of a well set-up car.

Any attempt to produce a rubber tyre for 12th is doomed to failure as the suspension geometry cannot maintain the correct contact patch. If yuou want to run 12th on rubber tyres, use one of the many 12th Touring Cars available. They have narrow tyres (easier to control) and proper suspension geometry designed for a rubber tyre.

Good luck to anyone who wants to give it a go, but the reality is that the Laws of Physics are against you. Like someone said earlier, 12th ain't broke, so don't fix it. HTH
SlowerOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 02:31 PM   #29
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJS414 View Post
I don't like 1/12. Because I think the handling is very unrealistical. I have watched them closely to try to understand, I even drove them many years ago.

I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
Maybe it is not "Old 1/12 Drivers". Maybe it is because the class is doing well as it is and there is no reason to change.

Why does it have to be "Realistic". There is nothing about R/C that is realistic. Nothing good will come out of rubber tires for 1/12 except cars that handle bad like the current TC's. Classes have come and gone, 1/12 is still alive for many reasons, one being the rules for the class have had very little change.

Steve Dunn
Indianapolis, IN USA
sdunnmcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 02:32 PM   #30
Tech Champion
 
RedBullFiXX's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Intergalactic Planetary
Posts: 6,542
Trader Rating: 34 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJS414 View Post
I don't like 1/12. Because I think the handling is very unrealistical. I have watched them closely to try to understand, I even drove them many years ago.

I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
What about a rubber tire that doesn't have an insert? Like just a slab of rubber glued to a rim like the mini-z guys use?
I guess some of you think rubber tires are a move forward, if you mean more complexity and expense, you're right.

Where would the GT500 Pan/Rubber combo fall in here, Do we need yet another class of painfully slow, scale cars parading around? perhaps, but don't we already have, RCGT, USVTA, F1, & Mini.

How many slow, realistic classes do we need?
Why is 12th scale so often the target of fixation for the rubber tire lovers.

12th scale is the fastest car on a road course, conservative as it is, that's the fact.
Simple, low cost, low maintenance, cheap tires, cheap lipos (1s)
It doesn't need to be fixed, no spec tires, rubber tires, just leave it alone, it works as is.
__________________
--> 12th scale Information Source <--

"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing."
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
RedBullFiXX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1/12 forum ovalnator Electric On-Road 46168 Yesterday 10:13 AM
Will there ever be a 1/8th scale Electric onroad car Raydee Oval, Larger Scales and More 1264 03-30-2017 06:47 AM
TRC/Enetti/Parma/Jaco/CRC/Corally/Xceed 1/12 scale Foamies Questions DesertRat Electric On-Road 11 12-07-2011 04:39 AM
Major races would fewer be better? teammidget lilB Electric On-Road 69 12-02-2008 08:55 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 12:51 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net