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Old 12-21-2011, 10:28 PM   #76
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I really hate 17.5 in 12th scale,it just seems too slow for me,i like the speeds of boosted 13.5 with timing tuned upjust puts more pressure on some drivers,no biggy.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:43 PM   #77
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The next "off-campus" clinic is scheduled for the 3rd leg of the Mid-West Grandslam Series, in Indy in mid January. Then we should be moving onto the Hurricane All-Star Series in Fort Wayne, IN the next weekend.

I'm attempting to secure a government educational grant to allow me to further the education of those at The Snowbirds and possibly the ROAR Nats as well.

I just hope my lobbyist was able to earmark that into the tax cut legislation that's pending.
belated thanks for the sced update, I'm on the upper-mid west coast. When I win a little lottery, I would like to have a front row seat please.
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:17 PM   #78
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Back in the day when I used to race motocross, it was a pretty simple solution to sandbaging.

17.5 NR (Novice class, 3 wins in a season or 7 top 10 finishes bumped you up to Amature)
13.5 NR (Amature class, 3 wins in a season or 7 top 10 finishes bumped you to Expert)
10.5 OPEN (Expert class. No restriction for how long you hang out in this class, moving to the Pro class was always a racers choice...usually desire as well.)
MOD (Pro class. Simply put, best of the best...with honors! lol!)

I don't know, maybe I am too hard core of a racer, but a format like that sure wouldn't make me wanna just hang out and remain lord of the flies! And I am pretty sure that most all US indoor carpet tracks can easily handle blinky motors in 12th scale cars all the way up to 10.5.

*zips up flame retardant suit*
Ok now this is an logical approach to the sandbagging .5 class delemma

I only like my idea slightly more cause it eliminates one class hence simpler

Ok I changed my mind I like your format equally

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Topic says 12th..........
12th IS NOT A BEGINNER CLASS!
slower speeds does not make it a beginner class either.

now if you want to start (newb) in 12th, so be it.

Also note that 12th has such a well rounded learning curve, too bad the straight has a 90* corner at the end of it!
I beg to differ

12th is the simplest class and the first electric class ever so if it's anything it's a beginner class especially at 17.5

Plus it's not a lame handling class it really handle's good and precise

Plus what about the drivers who raced 12th back in the day. I started about 85'

We're they beginners, experts or pro's there first time? So why has that changed? To them it was the only class and it was what it was

This voodoo about 12th like it's unfathomable to race 12th first is also why I think 12th is not seen as intorductory class and thus cost's the 12th scale community new drivers

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Old 12-24-2011, 12:33 AM   #79
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I beg to differ

12th is the simplest class and the first electric class ever so if it's anything it's a beginner class especially at 17.5

Plus it's not a lame handling class it really handle's good and precise

Plus what about the drivers who raced 12th back in the day. I started about 85'

We're they beginners, experts or pro's there first time? So why has that changed? To them it was the only class and it was what it was

This voodoo about 12th like it's unfathomable to race 12th first is also why I think 12th is not seen as intorductory class and thus cost's the 12th scale community new drivers

Yes and no.... A bad TC is usually just a backmarker, yet still drivable. A bad 12th scale car is usually either pulled from the track by a reasonable driver, or broken because the decision to was made to continue.

12th scale is, as you say, a precise class, and 17.5 is WAY faster than Mod was in '86. The average newbie is totally unprepared for how quickly they react. They see a corner, and generally, they hit it. I started running 12th scale in '86, (after a fairly competitive stint regionally in off-road) and the learning curve to get to mid-pack was HUGE. It's far bigger than the curve to reach the A-main in USGT or VTA. The days of guys who get in, to flat-out RACE is over. Now everyone believes they should be competitive 10 days after buying in. VTA and USGT are far better suited to that end.

12th pan will never be a "novice" class. There's TOO MUCH attention to detail in car preparation for the masses to be able to jump into. There are exceptions, but they are VERY rare.
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Old 12-24-2011, 02:35 AM   #80
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Yes and no.... A bad TC is usually just a backmarker, yet still drivable. A bad 12th scale car is usually either pulled from the track by a reasonable driver, or broken because the decision to was made to continue.

12th scale is, as you say, a precise class, and 17.5 is WAY faster than Mod was in '86. The average newbie is totally unprepared for how quickly they react. They see a corner, and generally, they hit it. I started running 12th scale in '86, (after a fairly competitive stint regionally in off-road) and the learning curve to get to mid-pack was HUGE. It's far bigger than the curve to reach the A-main in USGT or VTA. The days of guys who get in, to flat-out RACE is over. Now everyone believes they should be competitive 10 days after buying in. VTA and USGT are far better suited to that end.

12th pan will never be a "novice" class. There's TOO MUCH attention to detail in car preparation for the masses to be able to jump into. There are exceptions, but they are VERY rare.

Don't lock in on 'Novice' meaning just beginners. No matter the setup, and we can all agree here, if you can't wheel it....it wont matter. That alone will define 'Novice', just will also be an entry level 'Beginners' can feel comfortable in.
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Old 12-24-2011, 03:27 AM   #81
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new "drivers" vs. new "racers", now we might be on to something!?
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:30 AM   #82
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Yes and no.... A bad TC is usually just a backmarker, yet still drivable. A bad 12th scale car is usually either pulled from the track by a reasonable driver, or broken because the decision to was made to continue.

12th scale is, as you say, a precise class, and 17.5 is WAY faster than Mod was in '86. The average newbie is totally unprepared for how quickly they react. They see a corner, and generally, they hit it. I started running 12th scale in '86, (after a fairly competitive stint regionally in off-road) and the learning curve to get to mid-pack was HUGE. It's far bigger than the curve to reach the A-main in USGT or VTA. The days of guys who get in, to flat-out RACE is over. Now everyone believes they should be competitive 10 days after buying in. VTA and USGT are far better suited to that end.

12th pan will never be a "novice" class. There's TOO MUCH attention to detail in car preparation for the masses to be able to jump into. There are exceptions, but they are VERY rare.
I agree with the above comments completely.

12th requires a different approach to car setup and preparation than Sedan does. Generally, the drivers at the top of the pack will pay very high levels attention to the build and setup of both 12th and Sedan.... but the fact remains, you can get away with a sloppily built or poorly setup Sedan and still actually drive the car around the track in a halfway normal/quick fashion.

12ths have far fewer moving parts... and the accuracy and freeness of those parts tends to be more important. The accuracy of the setup and tweak of the car plays a greater role in the handling outcome.

12th got fairly popular at my local asphalt track a few months back. A group of 3-4 guys from out of town would come in once or twice a month and race 12th at our track. They were all pretty skilled behind the wheel and all had been racing 12th for enough time to know their way around the car. Their cars looked quick on the track and looked fun to drive. In the pits, the maintenance looked minimal and the cars looked simple and cheap.

This inspired a handful of local guys to purchase 12ths. However, months later.... to my knowledge, each individual guy who has bought a 12th scale has only raced it once... And then either sold it or just set it aside for the time being. The illusion that these cars are just simpler/cheaper versions of sedans, or other common on-road cars, is just that... an illusion.

The cars require more attention in every aspect. In the preparation and build, the setup and tweak, and in the driving.
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:48 AM   #83
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I agree with the above comments completely.

12th requires a different approach to car setup and preparation than Sedan does. Generally, the drivers at the top of the pack will pay very high levels attention to the build and setup of both 12th and Sedan.... but the fact remains, you can get away with a sloppily built or poorly setup Sedan and still actually drive the car around the track in a halfway normal/quick fashion.

12ths have far fewer moving parts... and the accuracy and freeness of those parts tends to be more important. The accuracy of the setup and tweak of the car plays a greater role in the handling outcome.

12th got fairly popular at my local asphalt track a few months back. A group of 3-4 guys from out of town would come in once or twice a month and race 12th at our track. They were all pretty skilled behind the wheel and all had been racing 12th for enough time to know their way around the car. Their cars looked quick on the track and looked fun to drive. In the pits, the maintenance looked minimal and the cars looked simple and cheap.

This inspired a handful of local guys to purchase 12ths. However, months later.... to my knowledge, each individual guy who has bought a 12th scale has only raced it once... And then either sold it or just set it aside for the time being. The illusion that these cars are just simpler/cheaper versions of sedans, or other common on-road cars, is just that... an illusion.

The cars require more attention in every aspect. In the preparation and build, the setup and tweak, and in the driving.
Naw, with all due respect you are speaking from an standby point of view not an it was your reality in having raced 12th for many years?

12th is overshadowed by sedan because it's thought of as not as cool and or popular. Things in life seem to follow being seen as mainstream or undesirable. The fact that those 4 guys from outside your racing environment came to demonstrate how fun 12th could be is a blessing that seems unacknowledged and again 12th is projected to be difficult or out of reach with the casual racer or RC hobbiest. Free up the top arms and links and your done. Check tweak and ride height like all RC cars and your half way to driving the still best handling RC car available. You now have extended run times though lipo and almost zero maintenance with BL motors yet you see 12th as unfathomably understandable. There is not one hobby where you can overlook basic setups and observations about the vehicles attributes and requirements.

Indeed I know 12th to still be the easiest to setup and drive cars still around after 40 years. Get a tire truer and your 80% of the way to successful and fun 12th scale RC car racing

Here is a post where ALL 12th scale cars can use setups as compared to sedan complexities and lack of handling characteristics...
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:35 AM   #84
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I dont see 12th as unfathomable to understand. I love the class. I spent a few seasons racing 12th around 10 years ago, but mainly just to supplement my gas on-road racing. I am now getting back into 12th seriously.

What I stated was not an outside point of view. It was the fact as to what has happened at my local track.

If anything, I would say that your view point is probably more skewed from having raced 12th for 20+ years. Based on your username and signature, it is clear where you allegiance lies. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is simply that 12th is not a beginners class. For you to say that "I know 12th to be the easiest to setup and drive" shows that you are pretty rigid in your beliefs. Which is cool... but I dont share those beliefs. And apparently neither do a lot of other people.
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Old 12-24-2011, 01:03 PM   #85
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I dont see 12th as unfathomable to understand. I love the class. I spent a few seasons racing 12th around 10 years ago, but mainly just to supplement my gas on-road racing. I am now getting back into 12th seriously.
People are intimidated by 12th for some reasons I still don't understand

When I got into RC car racing it was from having come from first having an 10th scale offroad car called an scorpion I think.



Very complex, very expensive but when I went to the carpet track that use to exist in Huntington Beach 12th seemed so simple and very easy to get started in. My first 12th car was an 12i. Nothing through my perspective seemed complex or beyond my reach so I'm just saying their is an interesting perspective on 12th that I don't get almost like there is an layer of fear over it when indeed it's quite pure regarding an RC car in it's simplicity


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What I stated was not an outside point of view. It was the fact as to what has happened at my local track
I only meant outside cause I thought you we're watching the racing not actually racing; my bad

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If anything, I would say that your view point is probably more skewed from having raced 12th for 20+ years.
Probably

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Based on your username and signature, it is clear where you allegiance lies.
Crap my avatar name gives me away every time ...lol

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is simply that 12th is not a beginners class. For you to say that "I know 12th to be the easiest to setup and drive" shows that you are pretty rigid in your beliefs. Which is cool... but I dont share those beliefs. And apparently neither do a lot of other people.
Maybe I am partial as you say but I started as a 15 year old kid. I remember upgrading from servo operated wiper arm speed control to a standard Tekin. I remember using the servo from my 10th scale offroad car and my reciever and that was basically it. It seemed so simple with such return in enjoyment and the excitement in competing with other racers both old and young. For the most part I remember just stocking up on tires and making sure my white endbell motor was fast enough to stay competative with stock class ...lol *When stock was actually stock*

So in having turned back the pages of my 12th experience for you I remember it being the simplest and easiest to comprehend class hence where my opinion stems from. And with BL and LIPO it, to me, seems even more simple. I guess perfect setup is difficult at times but that is with all classes I think and the only thing I remember sucking about 12th was when a certain tire or battery was out of the hands of the average racer or even someone like me who would try their best against the top drivers I use to race against

Lets agree to disagree
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Old 12-24-2011, 01:39 PM   #86
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Rear Toe
Rear Camber links
Rear Arm mount positions
Kick-Up
Anti-Dive
Anti-Squat
Pro-Squat
Belt Tension
Diff Height
Piston Holes
Anti-Roll Bars
etc....

Yeah, I can see how 12th scale is more complex

I like em all, but I concur with Kelly on this point.
For indoor carpet, 12th is easier to setup.

Driving is another matter though.
For some driving a pan car is easier, for some not so much.

I think off-road is very difficult, but there are more off-road racers than sedan & 12th combined and then some, go figure ?
When I say difficult, what I mean by that is, racing without a crash, and driving consistent lines within a few 10ths per lap.

Drive what you like and smile
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Old 12-24-2011, 02:09 PM   #87
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I dont think anyone would debate that Sedans are more complex.

The argument that some are making is that the setup of a pan car, specifically, 12th scale, is more important than that of a Sedan to obtain a funtional, drivable car. Thus, where beginners tend to make mistakes in ride height settings, building crappy shocks with air in them, leaving the suspension binding, etc... This has a much more pronounced effect on the handling of a pan car than on that of a 4wd Sedan with independent suspension. These issues may not manifest themselves in a truly negative way with a Sedan... your Sedan may not be perfect, but it isn't going to be undrivable. The same cannot be said for a pan car that is setup so poorly.

Regardless, every has their own opinion about these things.
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Old 12-24-2011, 02:12 PM   #88
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Old 12-24-2011, 02:29 PM   #89
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I dont think anyone would debate that Sedans are more complex.

The argument that some are making is that the setup of a pan car, specifically, 12th scale, is more important than that of a Sedan to obtain a funtional, drivable car. Thus, where beginners tend to make mistakes in ride height settings, building crappy shocks with air in them, leaving the suspension binding, etc... This has a much more pronounced effect on the handling of a pan car than on that of a 4wd Sedan with independent suspension. These issues may not manifest themselves in a truly negative way with a Sedan... your Sedan may not be perfect, but it isn't going to be undrivable. The same cannot be said for a pan car that is setup so poorly.

Regardless, every has their own opinion about these things.
It seems to me that these things like ride height, and a 12th car built so it doesn't bind are pretty easy to learn and remember. Even the instructions in 12th cars says to make sure everything is freely moving but I'm still saying there is not so many variables as sedan hence sedan is actually much more intimidating but then again it's the current norm and what is expected for an new comer to onroad to purchase. Then if you go into the pits where the guys are racing sedan they seem to think negatively about 12th or say the usual "Yea not many 12th scalers" race anymore and yet from 12th mod to sedan mod 12th is still about a full second faster and we literally dance around the sedans humbly speaking yet people still want a massively more complex yet slower car go figure because sedan is the current norm

I mean we true tires 42/44mm then set ride height
Then from the stock setup most camber and castor settings are inate just from the stock setup. .020 ft springs are the norm overall in general. Track width is 172mm and I'm trying to see your point but can't at the moment

To me the most difficult is still mounting the first body for the 12th car ...lol

But whatever it's all good

I guess if I had more money I'd race sedan but I'd expect a HUGE learning curve to keep up with the fast guys at Norcal who have been racing sedan for almost 10 years now I think

I think if I was to get a second car I'd get a WGT and given it had spec tires it's pretty much a big brother to 12th

Peace
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Old 12-24-2011, 03:26 PM   #90
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I see both sides of the argument. My personal opinion is every racer should start in 12th. I am fairly new to it and trying to break my sloppy build/tune/setup habbits has been one of the hardest things about it. I used to build cars with the tires half glued shocks half full of air....you get my point. 12th makes you look at the car in a whole new light. It is that little "bur" on the arm that you used to let go that you now spend time trying to figure out the best way to take off. There is a ton of little - big things you have to do in order to get a well handling car. In addition to that it develops your "feel" of a car. When I started RC and guys would talk about the "feel" of the car, I thought they were full of crap. My thinking was: you are not setting in it - how can you "feel" it? Then after I began racing I saw what they were talking about. Now that I am working with 12th my "feel" is really heightened -they are so sensitive. There is a good mix of guys at our local track. About half of them bolt on tires, charge batteries, slam the body on then pitch the car on the track and then can't understand why the guy that has all the gauges and spends all his time between rounds checking and adjusting is blowing him away - and 12th makes you do that. People are allergic to them because they don't want to take the time in working and learning. They want instant, easy gratification.

I am new and maybe overstepping my experience to all of this by saying anything, but I do think there are valid points in what I have said. Plus, I have been all of the people I discussed. I just think it is better to start out with something that is not harder, but has to been done close to exactly right. Then everything else is easy.
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