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Old 12-16-2011, 07:55 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by tim fry View Post
As the title says why is 17.5 so popular in US compared to Europe running Mod or 10.5?
Track size and crappy weather especially here in MN, lol.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:14 AM   #32
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That's definitely one way to look at it. And on a track the size of TQ, I'd run Mod for sure. Ya just do it like we used to, and slowly step up in motor as you learn to handle it. Hell in the old days, I used to club race with an 18t against guys running 14's and 15's. Of course there were other people running mod back then to race with.

The problem for me right now is that my track is 63'x33 with 6' lanes. Blinky 17.5 is still like watching paint dry, but 13.5 blinky feels quick, and 13.5 boosted is pretty scary. I know if many of us had a track that was more hospitable to mod to test on, we'd be more likely to make the jump.

I've just seen that people say 17.5 boosted is too fast, hence the move to blinky. If they feel that way, they've more than likely already talked themselves out of 13.5, much less open mod........ and that makes me
I often run 13.5 boost in our open class.
We have 10.5, 5.5, 3.5, 4.5 boosted.
It's why we call it open.

With 17.5 blinky, and an open class, there is something for everyone
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:56 AM   #33
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Ive never understood the idea that blinky makes the racing "artificially close"... What does that mean? Close racing is close racing, period.

Just like fullsize car racing, such as within the SCCA, the most popular classes are the spec classes. Spec Miata and Spec Racer Ford routinely have 2-3x the yearly participation numbers of the other "open" classes. Both on a regional and national level.

The reality is this... Most hobbyists, even those who travel and compete at big races, do not have the time, facilities available to them, or flat out resources available to test, test, test. The more variables that are available to change that can potentially improve the performance/lap times of the car, the more testing is needed to extract the full potential. Again, most competitors simply are not able to test as much as they would like. Classes like 17.5 Blinky 12th allow them to reach a more competitive level with less testing/resources. This is appealing to a lot of people.

Is it taking the easy way out? I suppose you could call it that. But regardless of whether or not the cars are "so easy to drive that mistakes are a rarity", the slower speeds and less testing required produces closer racing. Artificially closer? Im not sure how close racing can be artificial? When a class becomes accessible to the majority, be it because of the speeds of the cars(or lackthereof), the ease of approaching the competitive level/pack, or whatever.... that class usually begins to thrive.

As is always the case, it is much easier to get the first 90% out of the car than it is the last 10%. For 17.5 Blinky 12th, it seems to be more like 95/5%. And for whatever reason, that attracts entries. 12th scale appears to growing, and we should embrace whatever it is we are doing... because we are apparently doing something correct.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:05 PM   #34
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Ive never understood the idea that blinky makes the racing "artificially close"... What does that mean? Close racing is close racing, period.

Just like fullsize car racing, such as within the SCCA, the most popular classes are the spec classes. Spec Miata and Spec Racer Ford routinely have 2-3x the yearly participation numbers of the other "open" classes. Both on a regional and national level.
But it's NOT Full Scale Racing, so wouldn't real car comparisons have much more to do with $$$ spent, rather than going slower because it's more fun ?

The reality is this... Most hobbyists, even those who travel and compete at big races, do not have the time, facilities available to them, or flat out resources available to test, test, test. The more variables that are available to change that can potentially improve the performance/lap times of the car, the more testing is needed to extract the full potential. Again, most competitors simply are not able to test as much as they would like. Classes like 17.5 Blinky 12th allow them to reach a more competitive level with less testing/resources. This is appealing to a lot of people.

Is it taking the easy way out? I suppose you could call it that. But regardless of whether or not the cars are "so easy to drive that mistakes are a rarity", the slower speeds and less testing required produces closer racing. Artificially closer? Im not sure how close racing can be artificial? When a class becomes accessible to the majority, be it because of the speeds of the cars(or lackthereof), the ease of approaching the competitive level/pack, or whatever.... that class usually begins to thrive.

As is always the case, it is much easier to get the first 90% out of the car than it is the last 10%. For 17.5 Blinky 12th, it seems to be more like 95/5%. And for whatever reason, that attracts entries. 12th scale appears to growing, and we should embrace whatever it is we are doing... because we are apparently doing something correct.
With 12th scale racing, mod or open class doesn't really cost any more to do, other than tires wearing a bit faster.

How many of you choose to race the slowest cars in video games, because of the close, slow racing ?

I just don't get this discussion point

Having said that, I do enjoy blinky racing, as it's still 12th scale, and that's enough to make it fun. But if there is a faster class, I'm all in for the "Challenge"

Small tracks, narrow lanes, less grip, these conditions offer a real challenge, that don't need more motor to enjoy. different story here.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:26 PM   #35
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With 12th scale racing, mod or open class doesn't really cost any more to do, other than tires wearing a bit faster.

How many of you choose to race the slowest cars in video games, because of the close, slow racing ?

I just don't get this discussion point

Having said that, I do enjoy blinky racing, as it's still 12th scale, and that's enough to make it fun. But if there is a faster class, I'm all in for the "Challenge"

Small tracks, narrow lanes, less grip, these conditions offer a real challenge, that don't need more motor to enjoy. different story here.
Ask the guys at the front of the Spec Miata pack what they are paying for a Runoffs winning car prepped by reputable race shop... Easily $40-50K. Far more money than plenty of the "open" classes or classes that allow different car makes/models/etc which are much faster than a lowly Miata.

These guys invest that type of money to race in the class because they want close racing with big fields... As a class grows, there is a dominoe effect. The more it grows, the more people see it as successful and want in on the action.

Big fields breed bigger fields...
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:30 PM   #36
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If all we had were 370 brushed motors everyone would still drive with both feet on the gas pedal to get to the track. Just race!
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:47 PM   #37
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Ask the guys at the front of the Spec Miata pack what they are paying for a Runoffs winning car prepped by reputable race shop... Easily $40-50K. Far more money than plenty of the "open" classes or classes that allow different car makes/models/etc which are much faster than a lowly Miata.

These guys invest that type of money to race in the class because they want close racing with big fields... As a class grows, there is a dominoe effect. The more it grows, the more people see it as successful and want in on the action.

Big fields breed bigger fields...
True about Big fields.
Again, some of us just like more of a challenge when it is presented.
It's good to have a choice.

I have spoken with a few Miata racers, sounds like fun.
Have also worked with drivers of means ($$) who preferred far more advanced equipment than that, and they didn't seem to have an interest in driving slow, to have tighter racing.
200+ down Mulsanne was a far more addicting feeling for them.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:35 PM   #38
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I agree with your whole post, but this statement. Blinky has made 12th racing artificially close. The fast guys are still faster, but the slower speeds have made chassis set-up LESS important. The order is still pretty much the same as it was with boosted, but the guys who were two laps off because they couldn't drive a quick car on the line, have been rewarded with cars so slow that mistakes have become a rarity.

But whatever....If we want the sport to survive we have to follow public opinion.
Yet 25 years ago when there was a ZZ main at Cleveland mod cars where probably not much faster than a 17.5 boosted, and how slow where the stock cars? On Sanyos that had like 1.12 voltage @ 10A load?

Sometimes participation actually increases when racers have success in driving the car around the track without tearing a corner off.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:54 PM   #39
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Yet 25 years ago when there was a ZZ main at Cleveland mod cars where probably not much faster than a 17.5 boosted, and how slow where the stock cars? On Sanyos that had like 1.12 voltage @ 10A load?

Sometimes participation actually increases when racers have success in driving the car around the track without tearing a corner off.
Back in those days, good cells for mod were a rare commodity, and having a properly built efficient (Reedy) motor was for the chosen few.
The choice for many of us was stock racing or dump at 6:30 ish in mod.

In the present, which is on point of the topic, anyone can buy a cheap motor/lipo, and run 8 mins fast, without dumping.

To have a chance when the comp level is high, Blinky requires a really good motor, and lipo.

The choice is how fast do you want to go, not how much do you want to spend.
We are so lucky to have it this good in 12th scale right now

All this talk about tearing things off, and breaking stuff in mod cracks me up.
2 years of mod racing, and my R5 hasn't bent or broken a single part, maybe I'm just that lucky
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:11 PM   #40
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:54 PM   #41
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:47 PM   #42
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True about Big fields.
Again, some of us just like more of a challenge when it is presented.
It's good to have a choice.

I have spoken with a few Miata racers, sounds like fun.
Have also worked with drivers of means ($$) who preferred far more advanced equipment than that, and they didn't seem to have an interest in driving slow, to have tighter racing.
200+ down Mulsanne was a far more addicting feeling for them.
Absolutely... it is great that there is choices! That is what makes fullsize and RC racing great.

What Spec Miata has going for it, much like 17.5 Blinky 12th, is that the cars are slow enough that they are easy enough for most average racers to control(which leads to tighter racing, since the disparity in skill level affects lap times less), there are big fields(which breeds bigger fields, people see lots of other drivers having fun in the class and they want to race in it to), and the appearance of a relatively level playing field.

Blinky certainly doesn't guarantee a level field... just like the top SM guys are parts-bin dyno-ing fuel pressure regulators, dyno-ing exhaust systems that vary by inches in overall length to find the optimal combo, etc, etc. But that appearance of a more level playing field than the open classes always seems to attract lots of racers.

Whatever the real reason is, both of these racing classes are doing great and seem to be growing... which I think is great.

And it is great that Mod 12th still attracts the top guys who want to turn the fastest laps of the entire weekend. Something for everyone.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:47 PM   #43
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We went from 13.5 boosted to 13.5 blinky at our carpet track with the hopes of getting some guys back into 12th that were having trouble with the speed of boosted. After a few weeks of a learning curve the finishing orders are pretty much the same as they always were.

It is unfortunate that the car counts are not up enough to have the "pros" able to run in their own classes as more often than not that seems to be what it really comes down to.

And the really fast guys tend to travel to races a lot making it even harder to get them all in a class together.

Overall, I'm all for whatever it takes to keep people coming and keep the doors open. But I sure miss mod.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:52 PM   #44
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Hence the name "Spec Pinata"...

An example of the good racing:

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Old 12-17-2011, 01:02 PM   #45
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I have no idea why 17.5 is so unpopular in the UK! The average Joe and Josephine cannot get more than 0.5 sec lower lap time going from 10.5 blinky to Mod in the UK (under 5%), despite having almost twice the power. If you took a Spec Miata and doubled its power, it would be a a whole lot more than 5% faster round a lap.

People forget that most UK 12th tracks have a 12 sec lap time and 12 to 14 corners. Each corner is over in less than a second, and is taken at the maximum level of grip the car can manage. It doesn't matter whether the car has a Mod or a 17.5, it's at its maximum in most corners. No wonder that the lap times are so close. That's why the question for me is why we don't use 17.5 at Clubs to promote the Sport (larger set-up window, easier to drive, more forgiving, makes the class more attractive to new drivers) instead of putting them off by having them 'battle' with an overpowered car that takes a special skill to set-up and guide through a small track.

Methinks the US has got something over the UK on this one...
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