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Old 12-15-2011, 05:09 PM   #16
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I like spec racing , but spec is so hard to really make it fair and close. Go open and you don't have to deal with all the controversy over what firmware is in and timing on the motor . If spec was that good, IROC would still be around.
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Old 12-15-2011, 05:09 PM   #17
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Track size is one main issue but the racing mentality in the US has changed. Eventually moving to modified used to be a part of a racer's natural progression up the ranks. Now stock results are considered just as prestigious as modified and there is no longer a stigma attached to sandbagging in stock classes.
lol... Calling em like you see them

Even better didn't we at big races use to race both just to kill the time so to speak

I remember you and Randy H. won both stock and mod nationals a long time ago in a galaxy far far away

Now their is a lot of segregation between the two
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Old 12-15-2011, 05:14 PM   #18
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I'm from Australia where we have never had a spec 12th class. The result is that Open 12th has been barely holding on for over a decade. The new ball pivot 1S cars have revived its popularity, but we are at the point where we need a spec class. If we don't get a spec class up and going in the next 2 years I fear 12th will start to wane again.

Conditions in Australia are a little bit special. We don't have a lot of small carpet tracks. Most of our racing is done on asphalt or a painted surface called Boral Coat (sand based paint). Tracks range in size from 1 Tennis court size to full size IC tracks, with most electric tracks being about the size of 2 Tennis courts (sorry can't think in feet).

Mod 12th works well on the larger tracks, and even relatively new drivers can get the hang of that in a few months. But for the smaller tracks we need to choose something under Mod. The thing is whatever we choose can't be too slow on the large tracks, otherwise it makes running series hard - our major races are basically multi-track state series.

So, maybe you guys can help us pick an appropriate spec class. The leading contenders are boosted 17.5, and blinky 10.5.

Both 10.5 and 17.5 motors are used for other classes. 17.5 is the standard for any Stock class in Aus. 10.5 used to be a super stock class 2 years ago, and is still used for SCT.

Initially I thought 17.5 boosted would be the go, but I've had comments to the effect that ESC settings are the last thing a beginner wants to deal with. 10.5 blinky would have the advantage, that the motor could later be used boosted as a mild mod motor.

Does anyone have any thoughts for me, what are the pros and cons?
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:21 PM   #19
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As the title says why is 17.5 so popular in US compared to Europe running Mod or 10.5?
I think a lot of it has to do with that over the last couple of years we have been trying to save on road racing by making it more approachable to new people, you do that with a slower class. 17.5, coupled with the general state of shorter track racing in the US just goes together well. On medium and up tracks though, it becomes less fun. We run 13.5 at our club, on a large track, and even it starts to feel slow at times but it is still sporty and competitive.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:14 PM   #20
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I like spec racing , but spec is so hard to really make it fair and close. Go open and you don't have to deal with all the controversy over what firmware is in and timing on the motor . If spec was that good, IROC would still be around.
i fail to see how spec racing is unfair or offers no close racing. as a matter of fact at this years Halloween Classic (180 entries with at least 40 more entries on a waiting list) the most exciting class to watch was 17.5 rubber tire touring car....blinky. it was VERY close racing and came down to driving. blowing corners, you lost the race. all the cars were tech-ed and the edge was having the best motor setup (timing wise), car setup and driving ability. but it was fun and fair all the way down to the last guy in the class.

so maybe for your purposes stock blinky is too slow and boring, but for the majority of us, it fits rather well. you may have an exceptional group of drivers that can handle boosted 10.5 and 2S 10.5. But I don't see newbies coming into a boosted 10.5 class on an average indoor carpet track.

i don't think IROC is a good analogy because SCCA has plenty of spec racing that is really quite fun to watch and participate in. enough said.

the title of the thread was why is 17.5 so popular in the US. not what do you guys run at your track because you don't like what most of the country is doing. what big races do you go to that offer 10.5? none come to my mind. the IIC, the ROAR Nats, the US Indoor Champs, the Snowbirds and the Halloween Classic all offer blinky stock, 13.5 open or blinky and mod. there has to be a middle/common ground that new drivers can run that is also friendly to more experienced drivers. stock fills that void.

at the US Indoor Championships this year, they chose to run 17.5 boosted and found the attendance to be dismal because people didn't have the time or the place to work on a good boosted setup. they had 150 entries or less, while it was still a fun race, people just didn't want to run boosted. that race last year had a G main in 1/12 stock, this year, a C main. that's pretty pathetic.

open racing still has it's drawbacks...I'll run either, but at our track, blinky stock is what happens to be the popular choice as it is with a large number of tracks across the country.

not trying to start fires, just voicing my opinion of why 17.5 is popular in the US.
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:18 PM   #21
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At our club "stock" is Blinky 17.5 TC in the summer, and alot of guys take the electronics from the summer TC car, and put into there 1/12 Winter Car.

We chose this to keep the cars speed manageable, and it allow people to continue to run the cars on a smaller budget. Not everyone can afford to purchase electronics and different motors for every car they own.

WGT has become a fairly popular class in our club, as we now run this class indoors in winter, and outdoors during the summer.

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Old 12-15-2011, 11:36 PM   #22
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the title of the thread was why is 17.5 so popular in the US. not what do you guys run at your track because you don't like what most of the country is doing. what big races do you go to that offer 10.5? none come to my mind. the IIC, the ROAR Nats, the US Indoor Champs, the Snowbirds and the Halloween Classic all offer blinky stock, 13.5 open or blinky and mod. there has to be a middle/common ground that new drivers can run that is also friendly to more experienced drivers. stock fills that void.

at the US Indoor Championships this year, they chose to run 17.5 boosted and found the attendance to be dismal because people didn't have the time or the place to work on a good boosted setup. they had 150 entries or less, while it was still a fun race, people just didn't want to run boosted. that race last year had a G main in 1/12 stock, this year, a C main. that's pretty pathetic.

open racing still has it's drawbacks...I'll run either, but at our track, blinky stock is what happens to be the popular choice as it is with a large number of tracks across the country.

not trying to start fires, just voicing my opinion of why 17.5 is popular in the US.
While we're talking about race results, The stock 12th A at the Classic and the blinky TC main at the Champs were demolition derbies compared to the stock 12th A at the Champs, and the Masters A main at the Champs was one of the best finishes I've ever seen. Frank and Chuck were separated by 9 hundredths of a second. That's a pretty close finish delivered in boosted.

Mod is simply too fast for MOST people on the tracks we race on here in the US. In the old days the jump from stock to mod was a much smaller leap, probably because you couldn't drive a 12th mod car with an 8 turn completely strapped for 8 mins. You actually had to worry about dumping, and base your strategy around that. Now you throw in a 4.0, dial in some boost, strap in a 6000 mah pack and rip the trigger off. If you tap, your car's in pieces.

Everyone says that we're running faster in 17.5 now than we were in Mod 7 or so years ago. You then factor in that Mod is a full second or sometimes more per lap faster than blinky 17.5, and you see that maybe we've gone and spec'd up mod to the point that it's out of reach for most hobbyists.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
Track size is one main issue but the racing mentality in the US has changed. Eventually moving to modified used to be a part of a racer's natural progression up the ranks. Now stock results are considered just as prestigious as modified and there is no longer a stigma attached to sandbagging in stock classes.


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While we're talking about race results, The stock 12th A at the Classic and the blinky TC main at the Champs were demolition derbies compared to the stock 12th A at the Champs, and the Masters A main at the Champs was one of the best finishes I've ever seen. Frank and Chuck were separated by 9 hundredths of a second. That's a pretty close finish delivered in boosted.

Mod is simply too fast for MOST people on the tracks we race on here in the US. In the old days the jump from stock to mod was a much smaller leap, probably because you couldn't drive a 12th mod car with an 8 turn completely strapped for 8 mins. You actually had to worry about dumping, and base your strategy around that. Now you throw in a 4.0, dial in some boost, strap in a 6000 mah pack and rip the trigger off. If you tap, your car's in pieces.

Everyone says that we're running faster in 17.5 now than we were in Mod 7 or so years ago. You then factor in that Mod is a full second or sometimes more per lap faster than blinky 17.5, and you see that maybe we've gone and spec'd up mod to the point that it's out of reach for most hobbyists.
Mod should be at least 1s faster than blinky.
Could it be that our cars handle so well now that racers are getting spoiled by the ease of getting around at blinky speeds, and are not up to the challenge of mod racing ?
There is a definite wow factor and adjustment period, but it's so worth it. imo.
Finishing a race in blinky without hitting anything, running laps within .2s for 8mins is an accomplishment for sure, no doubt about it.
But once you get there, why not try your hand at mod ?
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:49 AM   #24
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Mod should be at least 1s faster than blinky.
Could it be that our cars handle so well now that racers are getting spoiled by the ease of getting around at blinky speeds, and are not up to the challenge of mod racing ?
There is a definite wow factor and adjustment period, but it's so worth it. imo.
Finishing a race in blinky without hitting anything, running laps within .2s for 8mins is an accomplishment for sure, no doubt about it.
But once you get there, why not try your hand at mod ?
That's definitely one way to look at it. And on a track the size of TQ, I'd run Mod for sure. Ya just do it like we used to, and slowly step up in motor as you learn to handle it. Hell in the old days, I used to club race with an 18t against guys running 14's and 15's. Of course there were other people running mod back then to race with.

The problem for me right now is that my track is 63'x33 with 6' lanes. Blinky 17.5 is still like watching paint dry, but 13.5 blinky feels quick, and 13.5 boosted is pretty scary. I know if many of us had a track that was more hospitable to mod to test on, we'd be more likely to make the jump.

I've just seen that people say 17.5 boosted is too fast, hence the move to blinky. If they feel that way, they've more than likely already talked themselves out of 13.5, much less open mod........ and that makes me
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:31 AM   #25
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To the original question.......Obamacare.......we are to believe that everyone should be entitled to run 'expert' chassis classes on a short-course skill level basis. And I'm told that the newbs will quit if they are not immediately competitve upon opening the box from which their rtr kit arrived in.

I could be close, after all, isn't 12th a begginers class? Should it be?

Of course there's the fact that when you remove the electronic techno-wizardry, Driver and Set-up skills,or lack thereof really become apparent.
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:38 AM   #26
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To the original question.......Obamacare.......we are to believe that everyone should be entitled to run 'expert' chassis classes on a short-course skill level basis. And I'm told that the newbs will quit if they are not immediately competitve upon opening the box from which their rtr kit arrived in.

I could be close, after all, isn't 12th a begginers class? Should it be?
1/12 goes from beginner to world champion, but it is hard. You can't have a bad setup and go around the track like one could on the offroad or in touring car.
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:43 AM   #27
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In 1/12th our stock class is 10.5 blinky ,we also run open mod any thing you like permitted within the rules.
Tracks are fairly large in the Uk 100% carpet racing my local club is 100ft X 40ft . Club night s we run 10.5 blinky and also have WGT night 10.5 boosted.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:10 AM   #28
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Of course there's the fact that when you remove the electronic techno-wizardry, Driver and Set-up skills,or lack thereof really become apparent.
I agree with your whole post, but this statement. Blinky has made 12th racing artificially close. The fast guys are still faster, but the slower speeds have made chassis set-up LESS important. The order is still pretty much the same as it was with boosted, but the guys who were two laps off because they couldn't drive a quick car on the line, have been rewarded with cars so slow that mistakes have become a rarity.

But whatever....If we want the sport to survive we have to follow public opinion.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:24 AM   #29
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Correct! Thanks for reminding me of the Democracy part

oh, when does the next 'driving' clinic start?
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:31 AM   #30
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Correct! Thanks for reminding me of the Democracy part

oh, when does the next 'driving' clinic start?
The next "off-campus" clinic is scheduled for the 3rd leg of the Mid-West Grandslam Series, in Indy in mid January. Then we should be moving onto the Hurricane All-Star Series in Fort Wayne, IN the next weekend.

I'm attempting to secure a government educational grant to allow me to further the education of those at The Snowbirds and possibly the ROAR Nats as well.

I just hope my lobbyist was able to earmark that into the tax cut legislation that's pending.
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