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Old 12-30-2011, 07:39 PM   #76
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Nothin personal posted toward Chicky. His post just happened to be in front of mine, so I posted from it. Could have used others. Just my .02

I like the classes. I'm tired of WAY to many classes. You shouldn't be able to show up and have 4 classes based on the same car. I feel the classes shown are very good, with F1 thrown in as the current wildcard. Good job.

To many people are worried that they might not have enough racers, so they keep adding classes until a win MEANS NOTHING. Congratulations, there were 14 of you in the class... If there was a legitimate 240 racers in a class, you'd be DAMN impressive to make even the "D" main.

Also, you can't please everybody. We can barely elect a president with over a 50% margin, much less invent and promote race classes without more drama.

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Originally Posted by chicky03 View Post
I am one of the advocates of moving guys up to not be able to run stock anymore but to only have a stock and mod class with on-road being as fragile as it is, I personally do not think this is the time to do that.
I think if stock was "slow", you'd have more people on board. It might be for 20-30 people nationwide, but for the rest of us, it's to fast. Stock isn't a skill designation, it's a motor. Well, so to speak. On a national level, you should NOT be able to show up as Joe club racer with a beat to piss old car turning 24 circles one direction and looping the other and have a shot at anything other than misery.

Yes, the concept of having the pro's out of certain classes is nice. But it's the RC equivalent of a beauty pageant answer about your favorite book. "My favorite book is the Bible", insert much applause. If you could wish one thing, what would it be, "I'd wish for World Peace", insert much applause. Meaningless however. In reality, the lowliest of club guys that need the most help are NOT going to the big shows anyway. Who won Trinity's touring spec class when they did that as the national finals? Yea, that was Burch. The noobs that the series was targeted at couldn't afford to go. As a not pro guy, you should absolutely expect to get your guts stomped out at national event, not coddled like a 10 year old who didn't get a pudding pop on the school outing at the zoo.

I have a rough idea where I stand at a big show... It's not good. But I take my victories for what they are, MY victories. Not wins, but personal victories. A 5th in D is a personal victory if you should have been in the H. There's only one winner in any main. The rest of the people have got to learn what a victory or a good time is to them. And have a good time!

and as to keeping some of the pro's out of certain classes. I don't know if they know this, but some of the best stories (and worst) that I've heard over the years are from newer guys that got to get some track time with actual pro's BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE SAME CLASS. "man I was standing next to Paul on the driver stand, i was shaking so bad..." that's all people want, that's their victory. let them have that. They already know they can't be guys like Hara. So what victory is there in knowing you were in a class where the promoters removed all the competition... but left you in it... think about that.

It ain't a car show, it's a competition, first one to the line is the winner. you can't handle everybody with kid gloves. You can, allow a fair treatment to everyone, that's all any of us want.

My whole "error correction" thread relates to how Kinwald stomped me at the Novak race. To the guys that aren't winning, there is more to racing than first place. There has to be, or why go? you have to find your personal victories. Whether it's a good teasing with your friends, a good jam with somebody you've never met before, or being able to see just how bad a relative pro puts the boots to you.

And as it relates to this race, for me, the fun of trying a new class, F1. Never done F1, sounds fun, can't wait. I don't want to do it because I might win, that's out of the question. I want to do it because it sounds fun. No greater reason than that, fun.

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I'd like to be able to race 2 of the classes that I have raced the last few years with out having to invest in a whole new tc or wgt program to race 2 classes. To be forced to race only one class that might have 5-15 entries makes it a hard sell to attend the race.
This is gonna sound awful, but it's worded with the greatest of respect. If the race doesn't suit you... don't go. And by "you", I mean anybody, myself included. Nobody in Mod 1/12th is gonna be sad if a bunch of known fast guys don't make it. AND, Instead of being 4 laps outta the hunt in mod, I might only be 3. That's a win in itself.

It's okay to go to a race and enjoy it, run a class you don't run, get it handed to you like the rest of us. I've been to races where you watch what I call, "fish out of water" pros struggling with a class they have never done before. If that guy handles himself with dignity, some of the best marketing out there. Shows the pro's are willing to try, are good sports, and suffer on occasion, just like the rest of us. Courtesy of WAY to many "important" races, virtually nothing has credibility, so advertising you won "such and such" race as very little relative meaning anyway. Throw a VTA car together, beat the hell out of it and have a good time in the "L" main. Best weekend ever. Reminds a person why they started racing in the first place, to have fun.

I think I was talking to Ernie about the problem. I'll bet there are what, 150 or 200 noteworthy A-mains every year in the US? Ernie was still of the opinion that what won on Sunday, sold on Monday. I don't believe that anymore. What wins on Sunday is endlessly debated on the internet starting on Monday, until nobody cares. 200 A-mains, is 2000 potential bragging points for chassis, motor, speedo, tire companys to hype. Nothing unique in that scenario, not anymore. So having particular classes is really just not that important. Come up with classes that make the majority of racers happy and do your best. That's all you can do. And sometimes, as an event promoter, I think it's important to make classes that make YOU the promoter happy. It's on you, in the end, if nobody shows. But you did what you felt was best for the industry, at that time.

We race classes here that have virtually NOTHING to do with what is going on elsewhere in the country. Gotta pick your battles, and know your area.

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Another topic given the way ROAR allocates money to the track for holding the nationals, I believe Mike's and the guys there are getting short handed. Why not create a class structure that will bring the most money possible to the track for their efforts. Yes, sure we can get this thing done in 3 days now! Now I see why that schedule was done. I have seen many races where 260 entries were over and done by 6pm on Sunday with a 3 day format. Was ROAR scared to offer the best classes in a chance that it would not be completed in a reasonable time frame?

I think the class format should be reconsidered.
The 3-day thing is what appealed to me the most. Nothing I hate worse than showing up at a track that other guys have been driving on for 2-3 days before I got there. MAN, that bums me out. same with locals beating the tar out of an offroad track with the same layout for 4 years. If it ain't a new layout, I'm not as interested in going. All anybody wants is a fair race, and to have a good time.

Fewer racers also means MORE POTENTIAL TRACK TIME FOR ME!! and for you, and everybody else. 200 racers in 5-6 classes, beats 300 racers in 12 classes, hands down. I want to see deep mains, and excellent competition. There is no joy in being one of 12 guys in an entire class.

I like everything I see.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:44 PM   #77
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:56 PM   #78
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Team Eaves is in,me and my sons have not been to a onroad race since the 2010 Novak race in Milwaukee,just glad to be back running onroad again,Mikes is a awesom facility with personnel to match,looking forward to it.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:59 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
My 2 cents, I like the classes. I'm tired of WAY to many classes. You shouldn't be able to show up and have 4 classes based on the same car. I feel the classes shown are very good, with F1 thrown in as the current wildcard. Good job.

To many people are worried that they might not have enough racers, so they keep adding classes until a win MEANS NOTHING. Congratulations, there were 14 of you in the class... If there was a legitimate 240 racers in a class, you'd be DAMN impressive to make even the "D" main.:[


Also, you can't please everybody. We can barely elect a president with over a 50% margin, much less invent and promote race classes without more drama.



I think if stock was "slow", you'd have more people on board. It might be for 20-30 people nationwide, but for the rest of us, it's to fast. Stock isn't a skill designation, it's a motor. Well, so to speak.



This is gonna sound awful, but it's worded with the greatest of respect. If the race doesn't suit you... don't go. And by "you", I mean anybody, myself included. Nobody in Mod 1/12th is gonna be sad if a bunch of known fast guys don't make it. AND, Instead of being 4 laps outta the hunt in mod, I might only be 3. That's a win in itself.

It's okay to go to a race and enjoy it, run a class you don't run, get it handed to you like the rest of us. Courtesy of WAY to many "important" races, virtually nothing has credibility, so advertising you won "such and such" race as very little relative meaning.

I think I was talking to Ernie about the problem. I'll bet there are what, 150 or 200 noteworthy A-mains every year in the US? Ernie was still of the opinion that what won on Sunday, sold on Monday. I don't believe that anymore. What wins on Sunday is endlessly debated on the internet starting on Monday, until nobody cares. 200 A-mains, is 2000 potential bragging points for chassis, motor, speedo, tire companys to hype. Nothing unique in that scenario, not anymore. So having particular classes is really just not that important. Come up with classes that make the majority of racers happy and do your best. That's all you can do. And sometimes, as an event promoter, I think it's important to make classes that make YOU the promoter happy. It's on you, in the end, if nobody shows. But you did what you felt was best for the industry, at that time.

We race classes here that have virtually NOTHING to do with what is going on elsewhere in the country. Gotta pick your battles, and know your area.



The 3-day thing is what appealed to me the most. Nothing I hate worse than showing up at a track that other guys have been driving on for 2-3 days before I got there. MAN, that bums me out.

Fewer racers also means MORE POTENTIAL TRACK TIME FOR ME!! and for you, and everybody else. 200 racers in 5-6 classes, beats 300 racers in 12 classes, hands down. I want to see deep mains, and excellent competition. There is no joy in being one of 12 guys in an entire class.

I like everything I see.
I don't disagree but there are not enough racers to fill 2 classes per vehicle at the moment. How does having classes to please the majority have the word Mod in it? No one races Mod. Having this class structure will in my opinion keep more people away than bring more to it. I'd love to have 240 racers in one class! If they were going to leave out a class it should have been Modified. If stock is too fast for most, I know mod certainly is. Like you said there is no joy in being one of 12 guys in an entire class but how many do you think will be racing mod? Was this class structure the way to get more guys to run mod? Not likely. The cars like you said are too fast. Our tracks are not like in europe where they are super huge. The cars need to be slower to get more people back racing, not just have 2 classes per vehicle, although that should be the ultimate goal.

My main concern is that I only have one class to race, but like you said maybe the race is not for me.

Any way that all I have to say about this topic. Maybe we can chat over the phone and try and fix all the problems with on road racing. Bob Stormer for ROAR prez and me as Vice Prez!
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:01 PM   #80
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I think if stock was "slow", you'd have more people on board. It might be for 20-30 people nationwide, but for the rest of us, it's to fast. Stock isn't a skill designation, it's a motor. Well, so to speak.
Bob - i think you've described the major problem here. w/in on-road stock is too fast then what is mod like? for indoor tracks modified just feels like some serious overkill....
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:06 PM   #81
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This is not the right place for this, but since it is a topic of contention...

I have never hosted a National Level ROAR race, can someone close to the process explain how the classes get selected? I don't want to side line the thread, but it would be nice to know who does the selection and how it works?

i.e. Does ROAR just pick or does the track have influence, or does the track pick and ROAR has influence or none of the above?

Thanks...
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:08 PM   #82
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What I find the most confusing is why ROAR chooses to go against the grain at a time when the other "big" carpet races are actually seeing increased attendance numbers and great racing?

If ROAR copied the class structure from the IIC or Snowbirds, minus Amateur Sedan, they would be getting applauded for sticking with a consistent classing structure and helping solidify that structure in what is arguably still a fairly tumultuous time in on-road. I do understand that ROAR is trying to stick with a Blinky only structure for anything other than Modified classes, which makes choosing Super Stock formats difficult... that is another debate altogether.

The problem lies in whether or not out-of-towners will choose to make the trip to Nats for a 3-day event that features a reduced class structure compared to the other big races. I suppose that we will know the answer in a couple months.

I do completely agree with the comment that was posted on the previous page, though. It seems to me that Mikes Hobby Shop and the local guys responsible for bidding/sealing the deal are getting short-changed here. ROAR seems to be experimenting, both with the scheduling and classing formats... And if the experiment doesn't work, it is Mikes that will suffer the consequences.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:42 PM   #83
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I don't disagree but there are not enough racers to fill 2 classes per vehicle at the moment. How does having classes to please the majority have the word Mod in it? No one races Mod. Having this class structure will in my opinion keep more people away than bring more to it. I'd love to have 240 racers in one class! If they were going to leave out a class it should have been Modified. If stock is too fast for most, I know mod certainly is. Like you said there is no joy in being one of 12 guys in an entire class but how many do you think will be racing mod? Was this class structure the way to get more guys to run mod? Not likely. The cars like you said are too fast. Our tracks are not like in europe where they are super huge. The cars need to be slower to get more people back racing, not just have 2 classes per vehicle, although that should be the ultimate goal.
If people want racers to step out of "stock" this is about as good a way as it gets with limited classes. There are 2 ways to look at it. Keeping pro's out of stock, is indirectly the same thing as getting regular racers to step up and do mod. All the 3rd class did is lower everybody's level of commitment and dilute the results. Now, I, as joe average racer, have a decision the pro's don't. I can race my class AND be in their class. But they can't be in mine. That's a win for the regular racer. And forces the pro's to be pro's. I'm tired of specialist drivers. Show me you can run one of every car on the menu. "Be somebody".

IN FACT, THAT SHOULD BE A QUALIFIER FOR BEING A PRO. You have to run every class. How hard is it to run 2 cars in the same class? ....pffft.... try running 8 or 9 different and unique cars. Also puts more money in the "entry fee fund". More total entrys, but fewer people hogging pit space. You can spread out.

4 class minimum for pro drivers. Don't run the main in your worst class, and you lose a lap off your best class. Be a team player, be a good sport.

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... Bob Stormer for ROAR prez and me as Vice Prez!
...pfft... We'd be starting over in a lot of classes, I'd get assassinated 20 minutes into my term.


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Bob - i think you've described the major problem here. w/in on-road stock is too fast then what is mod like? for indoor tracks modified just feels like some serious overkill....
Straight up actual Mod is AWESOME! But it's hard on your ego, which is why it's not popular, people have fragile ego's. I've been married for coming up on 30 years. My ego is ground down, and my emotional responses to criticism and poor decision making greatly dulled as a result. I'm a good candidate for mod... ...lol... Usually you turn better lap times with your 17.5 car if you're as average as the rest of us. And you find out what it's like to run out of traction half way through a race. But it is fun!

Mod is about survival for the rest of us, and the good natured bench racing you have with your friends when you find out you were 4-7 laps out of the hunt with unlimited power. My son said it best when he raced Mod touring at some big race we were at. like 15-18 drivers in mod touring. He said, I can either finish in the "J" in stock, or be somebody in the Mod "B" with Barry Baker, etc. HA!
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:54 PM   #84
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Mod in the US should only be available if there's Europeans there.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:16 PM   #85
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I think if stock was "slow", you'd have more people on board. It might be for 20-30 people nationwide, but for the rest of us, it's to fast.

And as it relates to this race, for me, the fun of trying a new class, F1. Never done F1, sounds fun, can't wait. I don't want to do it because I might win, that's out of the question. I want to do it because it sounds fun. No greater reason than that, fun.


I'll bet there are what, 150 or 200 noteworthy A-mains every year in the US? Ernie was still of the opinion that what won on Sunday, sold on Monday. I don't believe that anymore. What wins on Sunday is endlessly debated on the internet starting on Monday, until nobody cares.

The 3-day thing is what appealed to me the most. Nothing I hate worse than showing up at a track that other guys have been driving on for 2-3 days before I got there.

I like everything I see.
Great post Bob,

I couldn't agree with you more, especially on the above. Modified in most classes is just too fast. If we could slow the cars down in general then attendance will follow. (Both my opinion)

Should we drop Modified classes?

Should there be concern for the IFMAR Worlds? (Qualification for that is?)

Why is VTA so popular using a 25.5T motor?

Why is F1 appear to be gaining popularity?

There is also significant requests to introduce a realistic Grand Touring Class.

We're all ears and trying different ways to make races easier to attend, have FUN at, and at the same time be relevant.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:18 PM   #86
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Mod in the US should only be available if there's Europeans there.
By ROAR rules they can not participate in our Nationals and by their rules we can not race in theirs.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:20 PM   #87
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Canyon told me after last year's carpet nats that he wished he had a slower motor, because it would have made the car more driveable and yielded better overall runs. Nobody says you have to use unlimited power just because you're running Mod. At the IIC, Hara's 17.5 boosted qualifying time would have put 12th in Mod. His actual Mod qualifying time was only 10th, 2 seconds better. Hebert's boosted 17.5 time would have put him in 16th, with his actual mod time being 6th, less than a lap better.

If you were thinking about superstock, why not try that motor in mod and see what happens?

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Old 12-30-2011, 09:29 PM   #88
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Why is VTA so popular using a 25.5T motor?
I can't answer why VTA is so popular. I don't personally like it, from both an aesthetics and setup weirdness standpoint with the staggered tires.

But I do race the combined VTA/RCGT-style 25.5 class at my club (HPI d-compound tires, any realistic scale body). It's great fun, and one of our biggest classes. The lower speeds lead to some awesome on-track action. It's an easy step up for any novice who's figured out how to keep the car off the boards for a few laps at a time. And it's a great class to learn driving smooth lines, carrying corner speed, and setup basics. It's also quite evenly matched with your average silver can, making it accessible for people on a budget.

It's about 4.5 laps slower over 6 minutes than our Stock Touring 17.5 blinky class, although I think if one of the Stock touring hotshoes put a car down in the 25.5 class, he'd probably beat the current track record by about a lap.

EDIT: Additional note... I'm a big opponent of 21.5 TC, because I think 25.5 VTA (or scale spec as we run it) is a much better first-step-up from Novice class. 21.5 TC still has frantic cornering and is still a bit tough for newcomers. At the same time, it's nowhere near fast enough to even begin to prepare you for mod. Once you can run up front in 25.5 in our club, you're good enough to handle 17.5 blinky pretty well. Once you can run up front in our 17.5 blinky, you're good enough for mod.

-Mike
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:30 PM   #89
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Great post Bob,
.................Why is VTA so popular using a 25.5T motor?

Why is F1 appear to be gaining popularity? .............
Because they are fun!
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:37 PM   #90
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Looks like we need the "ROAR Funster Nationals" might be in order

The europeans must be rolling watching this thread!
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