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Old 11-22-2011, 06:02 AM   #61
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Well, here is the new (proposed) rules for 2012 in France.

modified class for one, no problems here.

stock class, 10.5t 0 timing and there is plenty talks about this on different forums.
The idea is to have a class to bring new racers to clubs.

and that's it !! (we used to have boosted 10.5t and 13.5t before)

You all mention plenty interesting point of view, but we need to look at it on a league or club level, it is there that most racers are based, not at nats, euros or worlds competitions.

one thing that I think, is that after spending probably a lot of money in design and development on variable timing, the speed controller companies are back to "ordinary" speedos, this could bug them a bit.

I read from you guys in the US who have been racing 0 timing for a while that it is not a cheaper class, as you need top batteries and have to push motors to the max to get competitive. So do not see this as a class for already "good" racers who do not want to pass into mod class and its extra "supposed" cost who were racing variable timing this year.

So far, have run a full season on 10.5t boosted, very fast, one motor and 3 Lipo packs only, one bearing to change on X12 and a happy season passed.

I am not sure if 0 timing is the future, but here we need to do something to bring new guys and keep TC alive, we will see next year if the new rules (EFRA rule also) is going to be positive or not.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:23 AM   #62
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Maybe because there are a number of people who aren't honest or mature enough to admit that their crappy driving or half assed program is the issue, not their equipment or the rules or blinky or whatever else they can dream up as an excuse for why they aren't winning.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:29 AM   #63
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And what are you rules doing to your class where blinky ESC is required. Where they are running blinky locally what I see is people are spending a lot more $$$ less experienced racers are disgruntaled and the numbers are falling.
How's it doing? Last year this time starting on the carpet, NO ONE but us "slow guys" wanted to run blinky. After the third race weekend, we had full heats down to the C main, and maintain that weekly!

In fact, super stock (boosted) has all but died off for the first part of this season on the rug. Might come back for the second part after the holidays. It SURELY is alive and well for our outdoor track.

I'd say that's pretty good, with between 20 and 30 racers each weekend. It varies seasonally as some people switch over to offroad for the summer months, but once it gets cold many come and race on the carpet.

Last year we tried 12th on 17.5 blinky. It was like watching paint dry. We went to 10.5, which ended up being too fast for about anyone. Then we went to 17.5 boosted, which was a good place for just about everyone. By the end of the season, even guy who had only run the last half were going on pace at 17.5 boosted, and some were working MOD with 4.5s! We started a program of 13.5 boosted, and that's where it stayed. NO ONE feels off pace or like it's too complicated. Even one one of the relatively new 12th drivers qual'd 3rd this week.

Again, blinky and boost BOTH have their place.

Our asphalt track is about 3 times the size of our carpet track, perfect for boost. We typically see one main of boosted, but often get a C main for blinky.

Drivers that run boosted and blinky, their average lap times between the two = boosted is about .7 sec/lap faster than blinky on the asphalt, about .5 sec/lap on the rug. Oh, and the bonus is that anyone running boost/super stock DOESN'T HAVE TO BUY ANY NEW EQUIPMENT. Well, other than a $5 pinion that they probably already had in their pit box anyway (or simply borrowed one from someone else).

No matter what class, fast guys are fast and slow guys are slow. All the money and equipment in the world won't buy experience and confidence.

Most of us at my home track aspire to move up from blinky to boosted, and since it's 17.5 boosted, we won't have any additional outlay of cash. In fact, with the proper set up (and aren't we all looking for that? ), with just a few button pushes and a gear swap, it's easy to switch from one to the other to get up to speed on practice days. For someone without the proper throttle discipline, or set up knowledge, or just track time maturity, or who simply doesn't want to run at that level, boost only compounds other problems. Problems that all too often negatively impact not only their enjoymnent and progress, but also that of those around them.

I actually think that boost is the great equalizer. With mechanical motor timing, gear ratio choice, tire size, radio throttle expo curve, ESC settings, and boost program, you can pretty much tune the power delivery 100% to your liking (for each track that you race at, too). It ends the motor/battery/esc wars, as the shortcomings of each individual component of the power delivery system can be tuned out by some other piece. I've seen second hand crap beat new out of the box top of the line stuff in boost, plenty of times. It's not too complicated, especially for today's average newb that's never known a world without smart phones and 100% 24/7/365 information access. But as I already mentioned, it's a lot to take in all at one time, and there are no free trophies for just showing up in the real world.

Oh, and the last time that someone at my track burned a motor for the win, it still had brushes in it, it was outside, and it was ME.

(I actually think what's broken isn't blinky vs. boost, but the paradigm that (the speed of)17.5 is the benchmark of where to start, but that's another topic completely!)
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Last edited by Buckaroo; 11-22-2011 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:33 AM   #64
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Default what boost/ramp war

The boost wars are already over. You can buy a Hobbywing for next to nothing which is just as fast as an LRP SXX Stock Spec or a Tekin.

What matters now is your ability to set it to give the required power and delivery without burning the motor out. This is exactly as it should be.

You can use a cheap or expensive battery, it doesn't make a huge difference as you can adjust the speedo/gearing/boost etc.

With the boost you can use whatever motor its going to more or less the same power with 60 degrees timing in it. Again its up to the racer to find the balance he or she is looking for.

The motor war is over. Speedo war is over. Battery war is over. You don't need 20 NiMh packs a zapper selected cells, comm lathe etc..

Knowledge and driving ability wins races but now its much cheaper, more equal, less labour intensive and fast as hell.

As we all know boosted 13.5 is way too fast for a beginner. Perhaps 21.5 blinky to get in the new blood. Mod for those who want to experience the ultimate challenge
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:50 AM   #65
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Spec is stupid cus no matter what motor or battery, ect , they will always find a way to go faster ...

Mod is the new spec class as nobody has a advantage with faster motors , battery, ESc ,ect ....


and

That's the truth ....
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:06 PM   #66
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How's it doing?

I actually think that boost is the great equalizer. It ends the motor/battery/esc wars, as the shortcomings of each individual component of the power delivery system can be tuned out by some other piece. I've seen second hand crap beat new out of the box top of the line stuff in boost, plenty of times.



It's not too complicated, especially for today's average newb that's never known a world without smart phones and 100% 24/7/365 information access. But as I already mentioned, it's a lot to take in all at one time, and there are no free trophies for just showing up in the real world.
Going well.

I agree with the above in particular about boost being an equaliser and ending equipment wars. It has stopped the best motor of the month and poeople pushing the motors beyond there temp capabilities which is a big problem from what I have seen where people are running blinky.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Olly986
Well, here is the new (proposed) rules for 2012 in France.

modified class for one, no problems here.

stock class, 10.5t 0 timing and there is plenty talks about this on different forums.
The idea is to have a class to bring new racers to clubs.

and that's it !! (we used to have boosted 10.5t and 13.5t before)
10.5T blinky is still going to be very fast a lot of punch out of corners and IMO too fast for new comers but if it works for you it works for you. Good luck with it here is what we run and why which may be of some help.

This is what I suggested we should run here and why (not exactly what we are running see below) is

Novice
21.5 blinky
21.5 boost
13.5 boost
open

This allows people to turn up and run what they bring TT01's old cars ect (keep it simple and fun) then move up to 21.5 blinky and when they have a bit better grounding often they make the move when they get a new car ect. No boost at this stage just keep it simple work on driving and car setup.

Then once they have the new car and brushless sorted out to go faster and move up they only have to turn on the timing.

13.5 boost and open is full of experienced fast drivers and the speed suits them with 13.5 boost being fast without the need for ultra fast reaction times and less wear and tear of open.


After dynamic timing came about and blinky software was coming about we had 50 plus racers who had already updated there gear and had already sorted out how to use dynamic timing.

We had the option of going to blinky or changing motor turns to reduce speed and provide a good mix to suit everyone.

We ended up with

Novice
540 pro
21.5 boost
13.5 boost
open

Numbers are strong with some of the biggest turn outs at major events and club days in the last 10 years and it works.

Other semi local areas where they are running blinky and different turn motors (provide very similar speed). From what I have seen and heard there numbers are starting to suffer motor wars are on and people are changing classes or going to off road.

Last edited by frozenpod; 11-22-2011 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:42 PM   #67
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For those wanting to run blinky class.

http://www.shopatron.com/products/pr...0.0.0.0?pp=10&
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:22 PM   #68
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Yawn .....

there's a reason why it's a different color and easy to spot, it's not legal.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:27 PM   #69
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Control the grip and all these power issues go away. Look at how well 2wd buggy racing is doing...
2wd buggy racing is dead in most places...controlling grip is not the answer for on-road. Having a car that is hard to control on top of trying to compete with racers who are more experienced is very discouraging to most newer drivers. In off-road it isn't as much of an issue because you have jumps and ruts and other things that are entertaining. This is why off-road in general attracts more people. Even as a more experienced driver I find myself often very frustrated by the lack of grip in off-road.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:28 PM   #70
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Yawn .....

there's a reason why it's a different color and easy to spot, it's not legal.
Why would they not be able to send them in for ROAR approval? If they send it in and it passes....its legal. I doubt Novak would sell something that doesnt meet ROAR rules....but I could be wrong.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:39 PM   #71
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The past advances had nothing to do with timing only when it was applied.
When timing can be applied relates directly to how much timing can be applied. Where timing can be set but is not dynamic you can't run near as much timing as you can with dynamic timing.

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Regarding buying the hot ESC when at a big race. They won't always be available. Take when the black diamond first came out. Only a few had them and those few dominated. I've heard of other manufacturers holding back on software and only giving it to a select few.

Regarding the club level. I fully understand running what everyone else wants. I'm talking about big travel races.
I remember the ESC frenzy at the Snowbirds the year I went...seemed like every day there was a run on a different ESC every day. In the end my Tekin with the software at the time was just as fast as anything else out there.

I also remember the IIC the BDs came out at. Yes they were a bit quicker but the controversy was way over blown. The difference between them and other ESCs was only apparent at the pro level as they were the only ones who could take advantage of that difference and as such it looked much greater than it actually was.
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Old 11-30-2011, 07:45 PM   #72
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2wd buggy racing is dead in most places...controlling grip is not the answer for on-road. Having a car that is hard to control on top of trying to compete with racers who are more experienced is very discouraging to most newer drivers. In off-road it isn't as much of an issue because you have jumps and ruts and other things that are entertaining. This is why off-road in general attracts more people. Even as a more experienced driver I find myself often very frustrated by the lack of grip in off-road.
2WD buggy is going well here the only off road class that is dead is stadium trucks.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:19 PM   #73
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Yeah 2wd buggy is going big nearly all over the world. Each region has different trends so don't simply focus your view on your own area.

My local area has just gotten yet another top notch indoor offroad facility to run at which now makes 3 indoor tracks in less than 2 hours drive.
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:37 PM   #74
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When all of you "fast" guys finish bickering over this crap and decide what class to race, come see me at the track and let me know. Until then, talk is cheap. Do something.

Signed, the guy that actually races weekly.
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:22 PM   #75
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Yeah 2wd buggy is going big nearly all over the world. Each region has different trends so don't simply focus your view on your own area.
My local area has just gotten yet another top notch indoor offroad facility to run at which now makes 3 indoor tracks in less than 2 hours drive.
I am a huge fan of 2w buggy especially stock and indoors and when TQSpeedway in Meridian opens (soon) I'll be a very happy camper, it's 5 minutes from my house. I got 2 new 22's and psyching up others to run 2w buggy.
All this blinky boost stuff is a moot point imo as each local area has it's own trends as you said. Make a class and I will race it whatever the rules are doesn't matter any more than who wins.
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