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Old 11-20-2011, 07:40 PM   #31
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I think that both classes have a spot in racing. Blinky (as stated before) forces new drivers to concentrate more on car setup and driving rather than finding all kinds of power. We moved to spec tires this year in blinky and the racing has never been closer.
Today I put the boost back in the car and had a blast. Forgot how much fun it is to scream down the back straight. IMO, boosted is closer in feel to mod than 13.5 blinky. I ran 13.5 at the paved nats and the feel is not the same. Boosted provides a closer feel to mod with the abrupt power application and noticable acceleration difference.
Remember, this is racing. There is a place to help introduce new people, but in the end, we are all going to spend whatever we want, race whatever we want, and complain about both. That's just what we do.

The question isn't about speed it is about the technology. We can run dynamic timing with a higher turn motor for the same performance of blinky. Ie a 21.5T with dynamic timing instead of a 17.5T or 13.5T.

Remember guys before brushless and lipo electric on road almost died and we are heading that way again rapidly.

We need to move forward by making things difference and reducing cost. Give people something new to work out, keep the challenge and keep the racers keen.
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:14 PM   #32
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Am I correct that more or less the core issue is cost? If ESC with boost capability sold for same price as those without or if there was a quality ESC with boost selling for say $99, there would not be this debate? or much less debate and hand ringing?

If the issue is the extra $100 or $150 the ESC with boost cost than the solution is relatively simple. Novak, Tekin, LRP need to significantly lower the prices of those ESCs.

I seriously doubt that the actual manufacturing costs of the various ESC sin each of those companies lines, varies more than $10-$20 from the bottom to the top of their line. The price difference is a common business strategy, an attempt to recoup R&D and to increase their over all margins by having a wide spread of prices for items whose actual manufacturing costs are almost identical(Intel processors).
I think if the manufactures took a long term view i.e larger number of sales from a larger number of people racing vs a short term view making large profit on relatively small volume of sales and therefore eliminated the retail price differences between quality boost and non-boost ESCs, the hobby/sport would benefit and ultimately so would they.
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:18 PM   #33
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The question isn't about speed it is about the technology. We can run dynamic timing with a higher turn motor for the same performance of blinky. Ie a 21.5T with dynamic timing instead of a 17.5T or 13.5T.

Remember guys before brushless and lipo electric on road almost died and we are heading that way again rapidly.

We need to move forward by making things difference and reducing cost. Give people something new to work out, keep the challenge and keep the racers keen.
I hear what you're saying. I just think along a different line of cost control. Buy a 17.5 motor and run it with no boost. Learn how to setup a car and drive. After becoming more consistent, you can practice with timing during the week. On race day, turn the timing off and race. When you feel comfortable with boosted, there is no reason to buy new equipment. The same 17.5 that was run in non-boost will continue to work in boosted. Buying a 21.5, then a 17.5, then a 13.5, etc. doesn't sound appealing to me.
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:53 AM   #34
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I'll will race either.

At the end of the day, the best still win and the worst still... loose

Race to win, via the corners of fun...

Whatever is restricted, either the racer or manufacturer will find out a way to make it faster

If I had to make a choice, it would be boosted. People have to remember that power is nothing without control.

Being in control is part of racing.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:04 AM   #35
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At the end of the day, the best still win and the worst still... loose
Perhaps they need to tighten it up?
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:05 AM   #36
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Cool

Riddle me this, for you TC guys.

Most (not all), of the locals I see racing in the Sedan class have upgraded their chassis every year when the new models come out.

Cost surely can't be a factor for these guys when it comes down to motors and esc's, then you have the Tekin which has been around for something like 4 years now.

Seems the power side of the package is the least of the issues.

The best package is the one that is most popular at the track you race at.
Nothing here to argue about, and Nothing to end when you think about it.

Just race, and enjoy such a cool hobby.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:11 AM   #37
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Just race, and enjoy such a cool hobby.
Impossible, guess you haven't been doing this long enough.

Can we just close all threads like this where people who don't race at any big races or at roar races just complain about eveything that doesn't affect them?
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:28 AM   #38
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Impossible, guess you haven't been doing this long enough.

Can we just close all threads like this where people who don't race at any big races or at roar races just complain about eveything that doesn't affect them?
I've known RBF for like 23 years now and only has he raced almost for that long he goes to many big races including IIC. In him being so helpful on this site and massively at his local track I think his words have merit since his knowledge is crucial to how he helps newcomers and assists track directors have a bigger perspective on what classes to run and so forth and how that can affect racing and turnout, etc...

I think RBF said it well these are just toy cars and I remember that from 23 years ago

RBF also did the coolest 12th body in history the Fast Fashion so I'm giving him respct how bout you
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:30 AM   #39
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Companies will start to invest in their progamming department if we make all classes open ESC. At the moment ESC boost programming is stagnate. Boost is raced at a few tracks and companies aren't sure which direction the governing bodies will go. Do you really want to go back to which ESC has the latest and greatest software?

Remember when companies debuted their best programming during a big race? You were either lucky and had the ESC with the hot programming or you wasted your money going to a big race. Currently all ESC's are some what equal
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:54 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by imjonah View Post
Am I correct that more or less the core issue is cost? If ESC with boost capability sold for same price as those without or if there was a quality ESC with boost selling for say $99, there would not be this debate? or much less debate and hand ringing?

If the issue is the extra $100 or $150 the ESC with boost cost than the solution is relatively simple. Novak, Tekin, LRP need to significantly lower the prices of those ESCs.

I seriously doubt that the actual manufacturing costs of the various ESC sin each of those companies lines, varies more than $10-$20 from the bottom to the top of their line. The price difference is a common business strategy, an attempt to recoup R&D and to increase their over all margins by having a wide spread of prices for items whose actual manufacturing costs are almost identical(Intel processors).
I think if the manufactures took a long term view i.e larger number of sales from a larger number of people racing vs a short term view making large profit on relatively small volume of sales and therefore eliminated the retail price differences between quality boost and non-boost ESCs, the hobby/sport would benefit and ultimately so would they.
This debate is not over money. The debate would be here if the esc's were free. Bought a tekin in 2008 for about $160. I thought it was pricey at the time. Now 3 years and several cars and multiple free upgrades later, what a bargain. Not to mention, great customer service. Lets don't kill a companys reason for making a great product.
As for blinky or non blinky, I can think of reasons for both, but it really doesn't matter to me as long as I have someplace to race.
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:48 PM   #41
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This debate is not over money. The debate would be here if the esc's were free. Bought a tekin in 2008 for about $160. I thought it was pricey at the time. Now 3 years and several cars and multiple free upgrades later, what a bargain. Not to mention, great customer service. Lets don't kill a companys reason for making a great product.
As for blinky or non blinky, I can think of reasons for both, but it really doesn't matter to me as long as I have someplace to race.
^ What he said
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:57 PM   #42
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Do you really want to go back to which ESC has the latest and greatest software?
One could argue that this also applies to which motor or battery puts out the best numbers (which is more relevant in non-boost classes).......

There are club-level racers who have trouble with a blinky 21.5...... whether the root cause be bad setup, driving, or too much power (for new guys). Boost, even at 21.5, could prove to be too much for some.

There's no reason to try and nationally mandate boost/non-boost for the local level --- that decision is entirely up to the track owner/director with regards to maintaining a strong customer base and keeping the doors open. If there is a group of racers with the ability and desire to run a boost class, let them. If everyone wants to run 25.5 blinky TC, go for it.

I like 17.5 blinky at my track. Given our size, we could easily run 17.5 boost (and I'd be happy to), but everyone is glad with throwing a car down and just running. Most guys also understand that there is no reason to blow a motor up for the win, so it hasn't been an issue. They also know that until their setup and driving is near-perfect, more power won't help them.

When a big event occurs, rules will be decided by those in charge. Either you follow them, or don't attend. If I will be spending the money for travel, hotel, and fees to race at one of these events, I also expect to invest in the best equipment possible, because I'm there to compete. If I have to spend more money for a good boosting ESC to race, I won't let that stop me if I really want to attend.

Also take track size into consideration. A very small carpet track has no use for boost, because a blinky 17.5 will make more than enough power for the whole track. However, a larger track might benefit from boost, providing more driveability and less wear on the motors (tall gearing and such). I'd rather run a boosted 17.5 than a blinky 13.5 on the same track for those two reasons.

My personal vote for organized events (TC) would be 17.5 boost (stock) and MOD...... unless the track is fairly small, then 17.5 blinky would be understandable.

In my opinion, if you want to argue you lost because you weren't given that "special" software, chances are you haven't proven yourself enough to earn that software......
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:40 PM   #43
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Companies will start to invest in their progamming department if we make all classes open ESC. At the moment ESC boost programming is stagnate. Boost is raced at a few tracks and companies aren't sure which direction the governing bodies will go. Do you really want to go back to which ESC has the latest and greatest software?

Remember when companies debuted their best programming during a big race? You were either lucky and had the ESC with the hot programming or you wasted your money going to a big race. Currently all ESC's are some what equal
Spoken as someone who completely doesn't understand the technology and why dynamic timing has the effects it does have.

Dynamic timing ESCs have all been on par now for quite some time and there are plenty of people outside the US using them.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:53 PM   #44
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I like 17.5 blinky at my track. Given our size, we could easily run 17.5 boost (and I'd be happy to), but everyone is glad with throwing a car down and just running. Most guys also understand that there is no reason to blow a motor up for the win, so it hasn't been an issue. They also know that until their setup and driving is near-perfect, more power won't help them.

At big events or very tight club level competition people are pushing motors to the point of new rotor every run to win with blinky. Not wise and I don't do it but others are and it is blowing the costs of racing out.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:58 PM   #45
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Spoken as someone who completely doesn't understand the technology and why dynamic timing has the effects it does have.

Dynamic timing ESCs have all been on par now for quite some time and there are plenty of people outside the US using them.
I fully understand the tech. I was on of the early adopters of boost. I ran it for almost 3 years. I had the tekin when it was a dog and not competitive. I also have experience in programming.

Not all ESCs are good at boost. Some are far more superior than others. Making stock sedan open ESC will give the companies extra incentive to invest in better boost programming. It will also force people to buy the best boost ESCs. Just think of their sales if they show up to a race, with new software, and their ESC is dominating. They would sell 30-100 ESCs that very day.

Regarding buying the hot ESC when at a big race. They won't always be available. Take when the black diamond first came out. Only a few had them and those few dominated. I've heard of other manufacturers holding back on software and only giving it to a select few.

Regarding the club level. I fully understand running what everyone else wants. I'm talking about big travel races.
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