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Old 11-15-2011, 10:22 AM   #91
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Default Odd sized packs?

Does that mean that people with older X-ray's that won't fit an "official" sized pack are now illegal? They were designed with round cells in mind but full thickness lipo's will not fit? Roar also did the same thing with thickness of saddles in May.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:56 AM   #92
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Does that mean that people with older X-ray's that won't fit an "official" sized pack are now illegal? They were designed with round cells in mind but full thickness lipo's will not fit? Roar also did the same thing with thickness of saddles in May.
^

...and the JRX-S, and most xxx buggies. very difficult fitting "legal" batteries since the rules were made too big in the first place.

sorry budget racers that buy most of your stuff used because that's the only way you can afford to race, but all your stuff is illegal now.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:59 AM   #93
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So is the attached legal??
I say yes because the chassis is still capable of accepting the standard battery. Now if you cut a new chassis based on accepting only this battery it would not be legal.
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Old 11-15-2011, 11:07 AM   #94
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Legalize all products at the beginning of the season, for the entire season, in the spec classes. New product release mid-season? Fine for Mod or maybe even Superstock. 17.5 blinky maybe next year.

Pretty much solves the whole issue, and then all you have to do is keep buying the exact same stuff as you burn through it.
The carpet oval race side allready has this in place. They only allow batteries or motors that are ROAR appoved prior to October 1st each year. So if new stuff comes out over the year, you can use it NEXT SEASON if approved.

They approve batteries, motors, ESC's and bodies once each season. Seems to work really well.

BRL, TOUR and Snowbirds use the same set of rules.
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:05 PM   #95
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^

...and the JRX-S, and most xxx buggies. very difficult fitting "legal" batteries since the rules were made too big in the first place.

sorry budget racers that buy most of your stuff used because that's the only way you can afford to race, but all your stuff is illegal now.
I never realized ROAR sanctioned events had so many budget racers with decade old cars wanting to race. Sucks for them.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:21 PM   #96
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I never realized ROAR sanctioned events had so many budget racers with decade old cars wanting to race. Sucks for them.

Yeah!!!! Stay Home!!! Thats the sprit that will help this hobby grow!!!

( In case no one can tell, my post is heavily loaded with sarcasm)
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:28 PM   #97
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To Rick H.
As i read the rule as at the top of this post, it is way to vague. A better explanation/clarification is badly needed before this thing really gets out of control. I understand the intent, when I saw the new smaller 1s and 2s packs I predicted new cars built around them. I personally switched to a shorty 2s pack in a VTA car because it allowed me to balance the car better without adding weight over the minimum. It does not seem like ROAR has taken into consideration those options and the fact that ROAR approved the packs.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:49 PM   #98
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Even if such a rule were to sitffle growth and development in the area of chassis design and drivetrain arrangement?

Could I please have my house and car back, there's this nice cave and horse I would trade you!

If you spec a max, by definition you must also spec a min. To do otherwise in the technology turnover/development culture that we've enjoyed since the late 70's, and especially in the lat 10 years, is just plain silly. Without a min spec, you de facto leave it open to what's possible, and by omission in the rules set HAVE to accept it as legal until or unless such rules set is ammended.

Such a min/max, though comes with the responsibility to review annually based on what's possible, fairly and impartially. That last bit is something that ROAR has struggled with.

The helicopter and airplane community has firmly embraced the current tech, and look how it's prospered because of that simple fact!

The simple fact is that ROAR and the racing community is going to have to learn to grow progressively with technology as bushless motors get lighter, more powerful and effecient, batteries get smaller and achieve a higher energy density, and ESCs get more sophisticated.

Writing exclusive rules once the genie is out of the bottle is not a sign of good leadership, or even good stewardship in a rules body. Re: the ongoing push to eleminate boost and flashable ESCs. Shorty lipo rules are headed down that very same road!

It's a dim view and VERY sad commentary on ROAR if they think or write rules because of the belief that people are lemmings. In any case, it's been the human way to always want what's new, regardless of wether it's good or appropriate. Who is ROAR to decide how I or anyone else is going to spend our money for any given product, or for that matter, how any company is going to spend it's R&D, production, and marketing money? Just because a car/battery/motor is NEW doesn't somehow make anything that anyone purchased yesterday SLOW or unable to win. Heck, people are still winning races with batteries, motors, and chassis that are several years old. Look at all the new batteries, motors, and chassis that are fresh and have yet to win(substantively) and have basically faded into the background with all the other stuff in the catalog.

There will always be people with more money, there will always be people with more brains, and there will always be people with more money than brains. Caveat emptor.

The collective ostrich needs to pull it's head out of the sand.

If that doesn't happen, we risk advancing in lurching leaps(again)......just like we did getting from round cells and brushed motors to lipo and brushless. The most recent trend by the racing community to what's possible with current technology has NOT made it go away, or made racing any cheaper, nor made it more accessable to more people.

That alone should be the object lesson and a textbook example of "What not to do".
Oh dear! The helicopter and airplane community has indeed embraced the current tech... and used it to allow people with no previous experience to buy and fly almost any aircraft they want thanks to LiPo and BL. They have prospered because they have hugely expanded their market reach to park flyers, not because they have got more people to their clubs and national events.

RC cars embracing new tech means the same people who raced then are racing now with LiPo and BL. All the RTR cars that have been produced with this better and simpler tech haven't increased the car market by anything like as much as the flying market. Your analogy doesn't stand scrutiny; you are comparing apples and pears.

RC car classes thrive when they are stable, not when there is a lot of change. I don't understand shorty packs - why produce a new car for which you have to buy new cells? Surely that increases the cost for investing in your product?

We have the same issue here with WorldGT. We run two classes - 2S/17.5 and 1S 10.5 - in order to attract people from both TC and 12th. This year, a 17.5 car with a shorty pack was the combo to have, meaning that to be competitive next year everyone would have to buy a shorty and a 17.5. People from either TC or 12th now have to buy more new kit, making the class more difficult to access.

No, you cannot un-invent technology, but you can change Rules to maintain stability and keep costs down. Anyone remember wrap tyres for 12th? Banned, and never seen again, and so costs are held down and people did not have to scrap $$$ of investment.

Personally I don't believe that ROAR has come up with the right answer, and the only bit of your argument that does make sense is a minimum pack size. Do that and this thread, and all interpretation of the new Rule, become redundant.

I'm sure you have an answer to all this, but like many others on here, I like the increased uptake in my class - 12th - because Rules are steady and that keep costs down. Well done ROAR - every bit the right intent; leading the movement to keep costs down and participation up.

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I'd rather pit in a cave and race horse-and-carts against 40 other people than live in a spaceship and race a new shape of battery every week against 4.
+1, well said!
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:29 PM   #99
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I like the rule. Though I wish it was taken a step further, and make any battery, that require charging in a safety sack (for fear of fire), be made illegal.
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:40 PM   #100
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Anyone remember wrap tyres for 12th? Banned, and never seen again, and so costs are held down and people did not have to scrap $$$ of investment.
Of course everyone just released a wheel at MAX diameter and we were right back to running exactly the same amount of effective sidewall as before. So wraps and 38mm wheels are pretty much exactly the same thing. A bit less expensive, but hardly a revolutionary cost saving measure.

I'm not advocating "shorty-only" designs, I'm just trying to ensure that we don't crush innovation and further development.

I also don't see how a move to all shorty packs would cause any more upheaval than the last major change we went through. It's a smaller battery, it will fit in existing chassis and allow for more balanced and lighter layouts in many instances. It's not like we're being required to purchase new ESC's, Motors, Chargers AND Batteries like last time.
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:47 PM   #101
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I'd rather pit in a cave and race horse-and-carts against 40 other people than live in a spaceship and race a new shape of battery every week against 4.
My nomination for post of the week
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:03 PM   #102
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I never realized ROAR sanctioned events had so many budget racers with decade old cars wanting to race. Sucks for them.
They don't, and those national and state events contain very few local club racers either. As a case point a resent national championship here in Aust had 24 entries in one class with 1/2 being from interstate, a typical club day at the same track would have 30 drivers in that same class. Go figure.

These rules effect those who attend national, international and state events mostly, as clubs will or can rule around the ROAR rules where needed to keep club attendance up.

As for costs, who cares about costs, if you cannot afford it, don't race it. Its that simple. Want to keep your costs down, drive spec, have a bigger budget and be better than the jones's drive mod, want to be a C grade budget racer, buy a Sakura Zero S, want to be an A grade racer, get an Xray T3 2012.

There is already enough of a split in cost from budget to pro to accommodate everyone, so why hamper development in the pro classes just to accommodate a budget racer who is never going to attend those meetings anyways.

As i mentioned earlier, i raced motorcycles for 20 odd years, at best i was a D grade rider, I had a tiny budget of about 10-15K per year and i hardly ever missed an event and went to just about every national and state title that i could as did just about everyone else because those meets were hell fun. But in RC it seems to be the opposite, the waa waa's and boo hoo's complain about costs and upgrade cycles and never enter into state championships or major events anyways even if they are the host club.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:40 PM   #103
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So is the attached legal??
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I say yes because the chassis is still capable of accepting the standard battery. Now if you cut a new chassis based on accepting only this battery it would not be legal.
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To Rick H.
As i read the rule as at the top of this post, it is way to vague. A better explanation/clarification is badly needed before this thing really gets out of control. I understand the intent, when I saw the new smaller 1s and 2s packs I predicted new cars built around them. I personally switched to a shorty 2s pack in a VTA car because it allowed me to balance the car better without adding weight over the minimum. It does not seem like ROAR has taken into consideration those options and the fact that ROAR approved the packs.
Sorry Rick, I have to disagree. "As presented", the receiver would have to be moved, and the forward battery holder would have to be repositioned to fit a pack of maximum dimension. By the wording of the rule, this configuration, at a ROAR event [club racers can be smart about this], is not legal. Almost certainly would be legal at Snowbirds, IIC, Cleveland, and any other non-ROAR events I've left out.
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:37 PM   #104
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MY favorite post of the year!
5 posts in, threw his own Dad under the bus.
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:54 PM   #105
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They don't, and those national and state events contain very few local club racers either. As a case point a resent national championship here in Aust had 24 entries in one class with 1/2 being from interstate, a typical club day at the same track would have 30 drivers in that same class. Go figure.

These rules effect those who attend national, international and state events mostly, as clubs will or can rule around the ROAR rules where needed to keep club attendance up.

As for costs, who cares about costs, if you cannot afford it, don't race it. Its that simple. Want to keep your costs down, drive spec, have a bigger budget and be better than the jones's drive mod, want to be a C grade budget racer, buy a Sakura Zero S, want to be an A grade racer, get an Xray T3 2012.

There is already enough of a split in cost from budget to pro to accommodate everyone, so why hamper development in the pro classes just to accommodate a budget racer who is never going to attend those meetings anyways.

As i mentioned earlier, i raced motorcycles for 20 odd years, at best i was a D grade rider, I had a tiny budget of about 10-15K per year and i hardly ever missed an event and went to just about every national and state title that i could as did just about everyone else because those meets were hell fun. But in RC it seems to be the opposite, the waa waa's and boo hoo's complain about costs and upgrade cycles and never enter into state championships or major events anyways even if they are the host club.
I should have put an emoticon to show I was being sarcastic. I buy the argument that ROAR doesn't want specialty cars being built around different sized packs. I don't buy the argument that they are hurting people with small budgets and old cars. My comments were limited to on-road. I have no idea about off road nor do I care.

Regarding bikes I raced at the local level also, starting in the early 80's. At that time the factory MX teams were using full on works bikes that shared virtually no parts with the production models. The production rule came in in 1986 eliminating those bikes. AMA roadracing has gone more to production level bikes requiring 17 inch wheels and limiting motor and suspension work. MotoGP is now allowing bikes based on production bikes in next year. Don't think for a second the playing field hasn't been getting dumbed down in motorcycle racing. DMG and AMA have virtually destroyed pro roadracing in the USA. ROAR looks like geniouses compared to those guys.
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