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Old 11-12-2011, 02:07 PM   #1
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Default What year the did electric cars start to challenge the fuel cars?

Hi

on a different forum there is a discussion about full size electric cars.

I was wondering if you guys could help me with the following questions.

1. when did 1/10 touring EL start to beat the 1/10 fuel cars on 1/10 scale tracks?

2. what year did the first Brushless arrive?

3. Who made it?

4. what year did the first lipo packs start to appear?

5. Does the EL 1/8 off road buggies beat the fuel models?

6. Same for onroad.

7. How long would a electric in the different classes go before it starts to struggle with the battery capasity.

8. What was the limiting factor for performance?

Estimates is ok and so is discussions about these estimates.
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:12 PM   #2
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this was what i estimated. correct me if incorrect.

Regarding the performance of Electric cars and their technology.

Back in the day IC Radio controlled cars where much much faster than electric but as the batteries progressed they crawled closer and closer..

The way you can tell best how electric cars in racing is delevoping is by looking at how a scale the RC electric cars stays competitive.

in 1/12 scale pan cars electric was faster probably allready back in the 80s. at least over a single lap or 8min races.

in 1/10 scale touring they where probably faster around the year 2005 or later over a single lap. or 5min race.

in 1/8 track they are on the limit right now. they lack top speed but goes like mad in the midfield and in corner exit. could probably stay competitive in a 10-15min race.

the electric 1/8 scale off road class is a popular one. due to the controllability of the electric cars they are also faster over a single lap.Could possibly go good in longer races too as they don`t need that much power all the time.
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:25 PM   #3
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I think that the gap got closer when Lipo came around and variable timing speed controller, first brushless for TC came out around 2006/2007, Novak, LRP, Mamba etc were all there from the beginning, but we got the extra power in later years with higher C rated Lipo's.

IC are still faster in long straight line due to second gear giving them the edge (slighly) but with lower center of gravity and weight an EC is faster in the infield.

But all this in the right hands...
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Old 11-12-2011, 03:39 PM   #4
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C rating is still the limiting factor then.

btw i doubt that the electric cars are unable to keep up with the IC cars.
Its just that the drivers gets better laptimes running higher turn motors, due to the infield.
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Old 11-12-2011, 04:05 PM   #5
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our top racers are around 1/2 second faster or slower lap after laps, but after 5 minutes race usually the electric is faster overal, but that second gear makes a big difference on long fast tracks, on a specific EC track, IC is slower.

but we do get massive amount of speed from standard motors in boosted mode, a 10.5t is one second slower a lap in comparison to a modified 4/5t.

Then you also have to take into account the foam tyres on IC and rubbers on EC, less grip overal, even with heat and treatment.
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Old 11-12-2011, 04:08 PM   #6
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From what I remember is that brushless started to find its way into RC cars not long after the airplane people started using them, about 10 or 15 years ago or so.

The first commercially available Brushless system for cars was marketed by Novak around 2001 it was their SS series.

TC in general has waned so the nitro side waned as well. Electrics were always faster in acceleration but you couldn't refuel them for long mains.
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Old 11-12-2011, 04:34 PM   #7
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I remember running electric vs gas races over 15 years ago and the electrics almost always won. Sure gas had more power and were faster on the top end...but on a road course top end isn't nearly as important as cornering speed and acceleration which electric was/is better in both. Also electrics for the whole time I have been in the hobby have always held the fastest top speed records in insane speed runs. So really there wasn't a time when gas was actually faster on a track.
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:06 PM   #8
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Novak released their SS5800 brushless system in 2003, which was the first brushless system specifically designed and marketed for cars. In 2005 a brushless motor won a class at the carpet nats and people went crazy because of ROAR's questionable rule changes.
Also, People had been running Lehner, Hacker, and other Germany or Czech built brushless systems for probably 4-5 years before the Novak system came out. I remember checking out Lehner and Aveox motors online back in 2001-02 for $180+ each.

Orion brought out the first hardcase lipo packs for cars in late 2005. Retail price as $125 for a 4800mah pack with what would probably be about a 20C discharge rating.

Electric has been faster than nitro on many tracks for a long time (probably for 12-15 years) because the throttle/brake control is just so much smoother.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:37 PM   #9
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On the track it is very hars to truely compare them. Its a 1.8kg car vs a 1.4, its foam vs rubber, its 2 speed vs single speed. In terms or horsepower a modern brushless has serious grunt over an IC motor, but I remember pasising IC cars on mixed racing tracks years ago with brushed nimh (8t days). The real difference is the power vs runtime. IC can be quick for long periods, a modern brushless much quicker but only for a few mins.

Fundamentely you are comparing sprint cars to endurance cars so the tech will never be the same.
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Old 11-14-2011, 04:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfire View Post
On the track it is very hars to truely compare them. Its a 1.8kg car vs a 1.4, its foam vs rubber, its 2 speed vs single speed. In terms or horsepower a modern brushless has serious grunt over an IC motor, but I remember pasising IC cars on mixed racing tracks years ago with brushed nimh (8t days). The real difference is the power vs runtime. IC can be quick for long periods, a modern brushless much quicker but only for a few mins.

Fundamentely you are comparing sprint cars to endurance cars so the tech will never be the same.
I agree with eveything you have said except "In terms or horsepower a modern brushless has serious grunt over an IC motor"

They have totally different power deliveries but IC motors are by far more powerful. Good nitro motor is about 1.6-1.7Hp about 1.2kw where as electric motors are about 0.6kw ie half the power.

Brushless motors and ESC for RC have been around for 10 years but they were not used due to regs. We should have started using brushless 5 years earlier IMO.

In terms of straight line performance nitro still kills electric.
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:30 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by frozenpod View Post
I

In terms of straight line performance nitro still kills electric.


An electric will destroy any nitro in a straight line.
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:42 AM   #12
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An electric will destroy any nitro in a straight line.
I have to agree with this. This has been done over and over again in drag racing. They always take the fastest of both classes and run a final overall champion in the events. Electric wins 99% of the time.
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:45 AM   #13
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The problem with IC is this. It has a very long power curve. To make its peak power it has to rev to a certain rpm whereas any electric motor makes its peak power alot faster! In other words, the electric will hit it peak RPM about twice as fast an IC would.
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:23 AM   #14
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See below

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
Hi

on a different forum there is a discussion about full size electric cars.

I was wondering if you guys could help me with the following questions.

1. when did 1/10 touring EL start to beat the 1/10 fuel cars on 1/10 scale tracks?
I don't think an EP 1/10 touring has ever been slower than nitro on a 1/10 track.

2. what year did the first Brushless arrive?

3. Who made it?
I believe that Aveox made the first motors that were used in R/C cars but these were used primarily in speed run cars. Novak made the first R/C car specific system

4. what year did the first lipo packs start to appear?
Team Orion in 2005 specifically for R/C cars.

5. Does the EL 1/8 off road buggies beat the fuel models?
They are close. It depends on the track

6. Same for onroad.
There is no real 1/8 on road electric development but there is no doubt in my mind that a properly conceived electric 1/8 on-road car would beat a nitro powered version

7. How long would a electric in the different classes go before it starts to struggle with the battery capasity.
Using ROAR dimensions a 1/8 car can go 10+ minutes and 1/10 can go 20+ but this all depends on many factors.

8. What was the limiting factor for performance?
The car itself


Estimates is ok and so is discussions about these estimates.
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Old 11-14-2011, 03:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Timbulb View Post


An electric will destroy any nitro in a straight line.
Electric motors produce maximum torque at zero RPM where as IC motors produce maximum power at almost peak RPM and maximum torque at (depending on the engine 70% of peak power rpm)

What this means in real terms is that electric motors launch from a stand still faster and this makes them harder to control and feel very fast but they do not have the power of a IC 1/10 engines and do not produce the same straight line speed.

Electric motors can also produce about 6 times the constant power output for short bursts ie less than 30 seconds which is why over a short distance ie drag race electric will beat nitro but in race conditions over a long straight nitro leaves electric motors behind.

For comparison a single speed nitro kit box car and engine on rubber tyres which we used to run 5 years ago ie kyosho V one s would have the same straight line speed as a 19T brushed electric car (it was really compareable to running a 27T motor). On the same track the nitro cars would run a 17.3s and the electrics would run a high 16s lap but straight line speed was the same.

The two speed open nitro cars running foam tyres were significantly faster at the end of the straight compared to at the time 6T and 8T brushed motors and lap times were similar electric slightly quicker.

This was a low grip track that was quite flowing and only had one quick change of direction where electric cars better handling was most obvious.

On most tracks electric cars due to better handling and low speed accelleration do produce faster lap times but even running a 4T motor will not provide the same straight line speed as an equivilant class nitro car (well unless you gear it to thermal in one minute and top speed is your only goal).
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