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Old 03-15-2005, 12:49 AM   #316
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Default Some new stuff

On another note, I have some new stuff I am going to try out. I was able to make a special one off short wheel base car for testing. The car is currently 196mm. I was able to hand drill the t-bar holes more forward to suck up the gap between the rear pod and the chassis, shortening the car 3mm. This is something that I have looked at that could be tuned in for various tracks. If you mount an Asc rear lower plate to the car, it will be short (193mm). If you mount an IRS rear lower plate, it should go back to full wheel base (196+/-mm). For big bite tracks that use Paragon, go long. For tight little tracks with medium grip, go short. I am also experimenting with some steering block stops. I ran some basic screws and nuts drilled through the arm last Wed night as limiters. It was ok, but it will wear out the steering arm quickly. Now I have taken a small plastic block and screwed it to the arm as a limit. I have been chipping the insides of some wheels, the Jaco's in particular. This should help prevent this from happening. Again, this is all development stuff that I am working on. There is a chance that Jeff Phelps will be driving this car that I am building at the Regionals in Salem.... if he picks up the phone

I am going to hit Rain City soon to test this one. The glue is drying on the servo right now. A progress report will soon follow.

Brian
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:57 AM   #317
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Brian,

Where does our Hyperdrive lower pod plate stands in comparison to IRS and AE?

Dom
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:12 AM   #318
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Default Re: Side Springs

Quote:
Originally posted by Slapmaster6000
Chris: nope, haven't tried removing the t-bar tweak screws and run just on the side springs. It's worth a try. I have never turned a single lap on asphalt with a 12th scale car, but I would think that a single spring damper tube would create to high of a spring rate with such a short throw. The CRC's with 2 springs might be better suited for out doors. But then... what do I know.

Dom: you are doing so much rep work here, you might actually have to start drawing a check!

Brian
If you want to try some side springs, try the Hara ones. They seem to be alittle further out then the CRC ones. I have also seen at my LHS modifed side springs. I might be able to get a pic for you guys but not for a bit. The guys are at Nats right now so i cant ask them for pics.

But the Hara center system is great. With the adjustable center piece to make it harder or softer. I am still looking for optional side springs but cant really find them. I can take a pic of my Hara and show you the center piece.


Jon
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:50 AM   #319
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JD,

I have seen a Hara car, those side springs are huge, I'm not sure how I would fit them in?

Chris
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:02 AM   #320
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Default parts vs parts

I have seen the Hara car too. The springs are large in diameter compared to what we are trying to use. I think that there is too much going on in the Hara car that we can benefit from their parts. So far, I have been very happy with what we have available through Asc. As for the Hyperdrive rear plate vs the rest, it's the one plate that I could not find up at the shop to compare to. I suspect that it is nearly the same dimension as Asc. I was not aware that IRS was slightly different until a week ago. So if anyone has built their car up with their parts, keep in mind that the wheel base will be long (199mm) and likely be a little more stable or lazy. I think that Cartwright has some Hyp parts, I will look at his to find out for sure.

Brian
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:41 PM   #321
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Thats okay, lol I was just making a option. lol.
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Old 03-15-2005, 02:57 PM   #322
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Default NATS

i just saw the nats track, open and flowing, not too much different from the past few months, but different enough. i have the spanker set up for that type of setup, i was hoping for a little tighter because the car corners so quickly. . i always seem to be a little down on power, corners would have helped me. i went to crc heavy tube fluid, purple/ greys, batts back, 30 weight oil in shock, i shimmed the back of the steering block.030 car handled great sunday, missed the a main by 3 sec's. back markers got me pretty good. i am not patient while carving through traffic.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:24 PM   #323
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Rudedog- when you say that you shimmed the back of the steering block, did you mean the vertical upright to increase reactive caster? Some have shimmed up the ball stud in the steering arm to flatten the links out and reduce bumpsteer.

I know what you mean about the lack of road course corners. When I saw Snobirds, I thought to myself "that just took any advantage I had and tossed it out the window".

If you are running stock with that utlra bird or what ever it is with the chrome can and purple endbell: start with this: full brush (767 or Huricanes), red/green spring, geared to a 1.70-1.73 roll out. All the cut brushes that I had were a waste of time!!!! Good luck! Brian
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:37 PM   #324
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Default Testing results

Hey MS fans,
I just got back from a couple of packs of testing on the short car. I ran 3 degrees of caster and 3mm shorter, the rest of the car was transfered over to the new chassis. There are a few tight spots on the current Rain City lay out that are really slow to get through. You are usually looking for more steering to happen to help you get through these sections faster. The reduced caster and shorter w/b made for a lot more off and slow cornering. In fact, it was too much for the current set up. The good news was, I repeated the course record time with a car that was edgy to drive for the last 4 minutes of the run. So I changed the caster back to 5 degrees which I normally run and reran the car. I instantly could feel the lack of turn in and yet it was better then what I had a week ago. With a few minutes to go, the car started to square off a little, acting like the rear springs were too tight. Still good news, this car was even faster. Wed night I will hit the club races to test some more. I will likely go back to the 3 degrees, lighten the side springs and stiffen the side dampening. My buddy will come up and run my primary car. I will make the same changes to that car too, to see if he likes it. The latest steering stops that I hacked out with a dremel from some old servo mounts worked very well. I put on a fresh set of front wheels so that I could see if any damage was to occur. The wheels looked like I just put them on the car! In the future, this will be a part that I will have to get out sourced, probably injection molded somewhere. As for the Hyperdrive lower plate, it appears that is the same as Asc. So once again, we'll be able to do adjustable w/b by owning the two different plates. I hate to jump up and down to much on the adjustable w/b bandwagon, but from just two packs tonight, I really think that it's going to be benaficial. Again, good luck to the nat's guys!

Brian
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:00 PM   #325
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Default Shorter wheelbase

Brian,

It is certainly good to hear the short w/b is a positive influence on the chassis. I've been looking forward to this test result for quite awhile now, and especially at Ron's track, I think it'll benefit even more so than at Rain's.

Dom
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Old 03-17-2005, 11:24 AM   #326
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Default The short report

Well, I got in some time on the short car last night at Rain City. With the car set at 3 degrees caster and 3mm shorter, the car improved in the slow and tight sections but was prone to changing around the 4 minute mark. I would normally choose a car that didn't change in the run vs one that expressed temporary improvement. In this case, I wanted to see if I could correct the car to be consistant and keep the slow speed benies. What the car would do at the 4 minute mark, was to start pitching in some of the corners. It did it in both directions, so it was not a tweak issue. It would pitch in the 3rd turn of a chicane or if I was in a sweeper for a length of time and then quickly had to change to the opposite direction. My first impression was to thicken the side dampening. So I repacked the tubes with a lot more purple stuff, btw; I had a 22 & 18 spring inside. The car got worse! Thinking about that, I recall back in the day when I used too much grease on the damper plates, it would have this very same experience. So I made a change in the opposite dirrection. I cleaned the tubes out, spung down to a pair of 18's and literaly drizzled Asc 30wt into and on the damper tubes. The car was instantly smoother to drive without giving up the slow speed benies, but it still changed a little in the closing minute. The cure turned out to be slightly less camber. From 1/1.5, I decreased to .75/1.25. Now the car went 8 without changing and I was able to retain most of the slow speed steering that I was after.

The moral to this story is: while I was able to improve course record and idividual fast lap times, I was disturbed by how touchy the settings had become. For Joe Average, it would be difficult to recommend a short wheelbase car due to the accuracy needed to set it up. The regular w/b car is far more forgiving with a broader range of adjustment. I think that the short car can be faster on a tight course for those that know how to tune. If you can not read the car, you will not be happy the swb version.

Brad drove my primary car with some of the settings that I learned from the short car. We were able to improve the original by moving the caster forward to 3 degrees, but it also epxerienced the same 4 minute twitch. Changing to lighter center oil (20wt) and making the camber adjustment, corrected the twitch. While Brad's car had a motor that I didn't care for the power band, he was still able to get the car within a 10th of a second of my lap times. So I really think this is splitting hairs. The most important thing is to get a car fast and comfortable for 8 minutes instead of creating something that is very quick and edgy that requires extraordinary attention while driving. Or at least I am too old for that kind of car

Now for the fun facts:
I was able to improve the course time by 5 seconds with the swb. In the main, I had what I call a 98% car ( damn good!). I ran 25% of my laps at 9.1-9.2, which only a week ago, I could barely get a 9.2. And I ran about a lap faster in the main then I did in qualifying finishing with a pair of 9.4's. I was pleased to say the least.

Set up:
Parma Purple/pinks- 1.63/1.74
1/4" front traction, full rear, TQ Mod for 10 minutes
w/b: 193mm
20 front springs
3 degrees caster, .75/1.25 camber, 1/4" toe out
middle hole in the block
middle holes on saver.
20wt oil, green spring w/ some preload
2 x 18's in the tubes w/ 30wt for lube (newer Hyp tubes)
3.5mm ride height fr & rr
Proto Speed 12
10x1 / 23/96

Brian; [email protected]
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Old 03-17-2005, 01:02 PM   #327
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Hey Dom,
This is a kinda off topic question but on the first page of this thread what kind of wheels are you using?

Thanks,
Justin
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Old 03-17-2005, 01:08 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally posted by jumbo360
Hey Dom,
This is a kinda off topic question but on the first page of this thread what kind of wheels are you using?

Thanks,
Justin
They are Yokomo wheels, Jaco-offset.

Dom
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:17 PM   #329
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Where do you get those? The website?
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Old 03-17-2005, 07:33 PM   #330
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Unfortunately they were extremely hard to find and Yokomo USA doesn't import those. You might want to try Canadian dealership or oversea.

Dom
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