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Old 10-20-2011, 08:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
+1

I own and have been messing with both cars lately. There doesn't seem to be any possible way to make one feel like the other. If I could get a car that turns like the Tamiya and has the stability of the XRay, that would be perfect. I know people will go on about how it's all in setup, but I've kind of come to the conclusion that they're full of *ish.
Like you I had both cars.... and both have their (+) and (-). Now I am racing the Serpent and I am very happy with the car... I joke around at the track that the S411 is like the Tamiya and the XRay had a baby and this is the result. The suspension (down to how it mounts on the chassis) is very much like the Tamiya (without the fragile part). The bulkheads and the durability of the car is like an Xray. Based on what you're saying, the S411 might be the car you're looking for. The only flaw I see with the car is the lack of ackerman adjustment on the steering bridge - however, I am hoping this to be fixed with an update part in the near future. If not - I'll just mill one on my CNC at work (once I figure out how to use it) LOL.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:38 PM   #62
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The title "T3 is slower then S411 TC6" is expressing what I see. There are many run faster then T3 in my track. I don't need to list them all. The main problem here in my track of T3 is too stable. Too stable means slower steering input , slower in turn, mid corner throwing out the car. You harder can go fast like other when traction is up. I know some people gonna say setup setup setup..... But I have reached my limit so nothing I can do except to change a better car to suit my limit. Maybe 417 is better.

The new T3 2012 sound like has improved this issued with more flex. If there is no such too stable issue. Why Xay 2012 mainly improve this issue to have the car on more flex for better steering. We need better mid corner steering especially.

I think if you race on ice, the T3 2011 is still better.

If you check on the TC market, most of the cars are already with aggressive steering characteristic. Now Xray is just following the trend with 2012. Is a bit slow.

Xray you need to be a head of others. Not following. When I read your column, you keep saying so much time involve with the development.... this and that. But seems like to me the Japanese is still the king of design of TC. They just don't so high profile showing of what they done. But don't get me wrong. T3 is still very good car especially for driver who bouncing around.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:50 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by TRESFR View Post
This question has a simple answer. I am sure this has been said before but I have to back up the person with the original post.

- Driver
- Setup
- Rolling Chassis

Some cars just work better on different surfaces than others. I don't just mean asphalt vs carpet but minor surface changes. Some Chassis work better on tight layouts vs layouts with long high speed corners. I run BMWCCA autocross and some weeks I lose to the same guy I beat the previous week because his chassis works better on a particular layout or bite condition. The TC6 was primarily designed on high bite asphalt at my local track so it works very well at that track. For anybody to say one chassis is not better than another for a certain track and it is only driver and setup is wrong. The TC6 will indeed be better than other chassis in some situations and it will be worse in others. In motorsport it is impossible to make every chassis perfect for every condition. The differences are minimal because of the large tuning range of an RC Chassis but there are differences none the less.
Agree with that. 100% this is what I keep saying here thousand times.

- Driver - already reached limit
- Setup - already reached limit
- Rolling Chassis - find better weapon

Last edited by ioxqq; 10-20-2011 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:58 PM   #64
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As much as I don't want to beat a dead horse, it could just be that your car doesn't suit your "driving style". Any car can be tuned to any driver, in theory, but some cars just have a wider setup window for a certain type of driving.

I like a car that understeers a bit on corner entry, but is very responsive through the corner and on corner exit. My Schumacher that I had before I started running the T3/T3 '011 had too much understeer. The T3 still had too much understeer on entry with the setup I had to use to get the mid and exit stability, but the '011 that I'm currently using is a great balance. It's all about what you like to drive.
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:26 AM   #65
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I bought and raced a T3'11 since december 2010. After been racing and messing with the car set up for 4 months i realized i couldn't change the way the car turns . To slow in the first part of the steering ratius, and incredibly nervous for the final part of it. I've tried everything ECS's , Ackermann changes, different degrees parts, countless time spent studing and testing set up's, i also started to think i was getting worst in my driving style just because of myself, i i was sick of racing, there were no way to have the turning sensibility as i want it to be.
I changed the car in the end of april and got a TC6. Since it hit the pavement i started to be better on tyhe track, changing set up ins easier, steering is perfect anc can be changed without major adjustment to other parts of the car. I'm not Hara's mate but i believe that X-Ray did it wrong with the T3'11 as much as it did with the 2010. Non excuses like " it's X-Ray way of drivig/style" the car is beatifull but the project is wrong.
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:38 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ioxqq View Post
The title "T3 is slower then S411 TC6" is expressing what I see. There are many run faster then T3 in my track. I don't need to list them all. The main problem here in my track of T3 is too stable. Too stable means slower steering input , slower in turn, mid corner throwing out the car. You harder can go fast like other when traction is up. I know some people gonna say setup setup setup..... But I have reached my limit so nothing I can do except to change a better car to suit my limit. Maybe 417 is better.

The new T3 2012 sound like has improved this issued with more flex. If there is no such too stable issue. Why Xay 2012 mainly improve this issue to have the car on more flex for better steering. We need better mid corner steering especially.
417 has very strong steering in the mid corner, opposite of Xray. You are right about the flex. I've been experimenting with this, made some modification, and it does work

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Originally Posted by duckman996 View Post
Like you I had both cars.... and both have their (+) and (-). Now I am racing the Serpent and I am very happy with the car... I joke around at the track that the S411 is like the Tamiya and the XRay had a baby and this is the result. The suspension (down to how it mounts on the chassis) is very much like the Tamiya (without the fragile part). The bulkheads and the durability of the car is like an Xray. Based on what you're saying, the S411 might be the car you're looking for. The only flaw I see with the car is the lack of ackerman adjustment on the steering bridge - however, I am hoping this to be fixed with an update part in the near future. If not - I'll just mill one on my CNC at work (once I figure out how to use it) LOL.
My friend had T3'11 and 417 now he has S411 and he says exactly the same thing, best of Tamiya and Xray put together
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:45 AM   #67
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After all of this good discussion I think the simple answer to the question is that Yes the T3 2011 for your driving style may be slower. This may not be the case for everyone, but certain drivers need more aggressive cars and other drivers need less aggressive cars. If you feel like the car is holding you back then try something different!
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:33 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by hana166 View Post
417 has very strong steering in the mid corner, opposite of Xray. You are right about the flex. I've been experimenting with this, made some modification, and it does work



My friend had T3'11 and 417 now he has S411 and he says exactly the same thing, best of Tamiya and Xray put together
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:39 AM   #69
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Any modern car can win race with right setup
Unless you are racing against better driver with better setup
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:52 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by hana166 View Post
YES 100% This is my experience exactly. 417 has steering, great steering, but Xray fantastic stable rear end. I have set up both cars with exactly the same geometry down to 0.2mm and they are totally different, its the carbon lay up in the chassis/top deck and the graphite suspension on the Tamiya, lower diffs, they will never feel similar

The reason I have persisted with the two cars is I feel both have very positive attributes and I'm looking to understand why, and get a car which has the best of both. Usually the Xray is quicker but if I can get the Tamiya stable enough its the quickest car of all
Did you also use the same springs?

The Tamiya's default springs (blue and white) as they are both a lot stiffer than Xray's more like 3.1 & 2.8
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:14 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ioxqq View Post
The title "T3 is slower then S411 TC6" is expressing what I see. There are many run faster then T3 in my track.
So if Paul Lemieux goes to your track and wins, then Xray would be the fastest car?

I have been the fastest guy with an old borrowed TC5. I guess that means it's a better car than all the Xrays, Tops, TC6s and what have you that I beat.

What matters is what's faster for you. If you cant get your car to do what you want it to do, try something else. If the car is working for you but you are still getting beat, look elsewhere.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:36 PM   #72
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Did you also use the same springs?

The Tamiya's default springs (blue and white) as they are both a lot stiffer than Xray's more like 3.1 & 2.8
Yes the same springs as the Tamiya springs are awful. Pink and Silver all day !
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:19 AM   #73
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Maybe, to keep everyone happy, the original post title should say:
"Friends updated their cars to TC6 and S411, and both new cars run faster laps then their T3 that got replaced"

I'm reading these posts, as I'm trying to decide on a new platform to replace my TC5F...been thinking about either a TC6, or S411 (for foam tire/carpet).

Anyway, to throw in some comparisons (don't bash on me, yes, I know these are different cars).....this is just for discussion on the topic, using different cars:

I also race rubber tire/carpet, a highly tuned TT01R, and was consistently placing 3rd in that class. (Being, I already had a lot of cash tied up in my TC5F, and did not want to invest a lot of money into a rubber tire car) Growing tired of placing 3rd, I knew it was time to try a more capable chassis. Most racers know, the TT01 has it's limits.....I think I reached that limit.
In 2 weeks time, I built (2) other new rubber tire cars, a TC5F, set up close to R specs, and a bone stock TA06 Pro. Same tires on both cars, same bodies, both 13.5.
On their debut, (I ran both new cars on the same night) The TC5 while still keeping me in 3rd position, I was now, only seconds behind the 1 and 2 spot. (Where as, my TT01R, I was 1 or 2 laps behind) Next, my TA06 Pro, put my car finishing 1st by a few seconds. This was it's maiden drive, only 2 or 3 laps to check steering trim, steering expo, and dual rates.
Last night, I repeated the races, with TT01R, then TC5, then TA06. Against the same drivers from before, and finished with similar results. In between last night, and the week before, I have made some set up changes to the TC5, and it is still not dialed in yet. I am sure I can get the car to go faster, but I haven't found the sweet stop yet. Perhaps, when I find the right set up, it will be faster than my TA06, but, probably, less forgiving when I overpower a turn. I have noticed, the TC5 car seems more agile, but with the wrong set up, harder to drive fast, while my TA06 has a very predictable and consistent feel, thus, making it Easier to drive fast.

I've read many reviews, where the TC6 is easier to drive fast, compared to the TC5 it replaced. Now I have to decide, if I want to replace my TC5F with a TC6, or go with the Serpent S411........I might have to get one of each, to find out which one suits me better?

My race buddies in Foam tire class, all race TC5F, and I place 3rd, 9 out of 10 times. Only when I give 100%, can I get close to 2nd or 1st, but it's not easy. Perhaps, a TC6 or S411, will allow me to close that gap, without getting close to burning a fuse in my brain!
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:41 AM   #74
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redfifty - I've heard that the S411 is fast and quite easy to drive but for the money and the abundance of support and options, the TC6 is a very economically viable chassis. If you can afford the S411 and are within reach of a good local supplier for Serpent parts, go for the S411. If not then go with the TC6.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:37 PM   #75
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I'm sure, I'd be thrilled with either car.
It will probably depend, on how much cash is flying out of my back pocket when I buy, as I'll need to add a diff to the S411.

But, I have TC5 parts (arms, etc are the same for TC6) so I'd already have some spare suspension parts.

Both cars are BadAss, I just need to sell off some of my collection, and buy one of each!

Anyone in the market for a collection of Tamiya BigRigs? lol
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