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Old 10-19-2011, 08:12 AM   #46
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I just heard a new one. Some 1/12 racers were discussing the differences between two manufacturers of the mounted tires. It seems there is a different offset and they were discussing the handling benefits. Now you need two complete sets of each compound to tune.
Actually, there are three different offsets if you include the Yokomo and CEFX wheels, and the way the different offsets handle can be significant, in MOD, where cornerspeeds are scary, and the need for forward bite is far greater.

In 13.5 and 17.5, (especially with the lower speeds in blinky), the Jaco/Parma, and CRC tires are both very competitive despite the difference in offset. It's really just a matter of shimming the rear axle to the proper width and running the car.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by windix606060 View Post
I remember about 10 years ago when we had to run the P35 protoform body that was the only body that worked. Pretty much we all ran the same tire Purple Front and Grey rear in stock class. No body complained then about everyone one running the same tire because you still had a choice to run something different.

I say Mod or 13.5 anything goes tire wise. Run spec for stock class so a new guy just had to buy one type of tire. Also the Manufacturer and the Distributers don't have to try to keep in stock the tire of the month and carry only what they know will sale.
If this is only for "stock class" why would "tire of the month" inventory change ?
My 2 cents.

How are you doing Al Dente? I had a great time hanging out with you guys in Vegas.
Great way to KILL 12th scale for cars that can't find grip on the "Spec" tire on some surfaces other than carpet.
Some of us actually run 12th scale year round, even outdoors

If this plan goes into effect, and retailers no longer stock anything but spec, say goodbye to 12th scale in the long run.

Think about the big picture here folks, not just what works in your little neck of the woods.

If this spec thing will work at your club, and bring more racers to 12th, then great, do what ever it takes to accomplish that goal.

But be weary of what you wish for...
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:25 AM   #48
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This would be idiotic.

The reason there are spec tires in TC is because you can purchase tires that under all cirumstances will give you .2-.4 per lap.

For example. Say jaco blues or solaris mediums are 25 bucks. For 35-40 dollars you can buy sjr's or Sorex and look like a hero compared to people running the other tires.

This is not really the case in 12th scale from my experience. Tire choice is basically personal preference and will not instantly give you time.

Sure I might be faster on one combo than someone else, but they may find a combo that is faster for them. In TC everyone will be faster on the more expensive/better tire unless they are terrible, and then does it really matter what tires they run?

All 12th scale tires are around 10 bucks a set. let people run what they want.

Kenny L was running tires that mostly everyone else was not at the IIC, but it was just because he wanted a more agressive car than others. Did this cause him to win the race? No his perfect driving and complete package caused him to win the race. Fast laps were the same for most of the guys in the A main, Kenny was just able to do more of them consistently.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:33 AM   #49
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This would be idiotic.

The reason there are spec tires in TC is because you can purchase tires that under all cirumstances will give you .2-.4 per lap.

For example. Say jaco blues or solaris mediums are 25 bucks. For 35-40 dollars you can buy sjr's or Sorex and look like a hero compared to people running the other tires.

This is not really the case in 12th scale from my experience. Tire choice is basically personal preference and will not instantly give you time.

Sure I might be faster on one combo than someone else, but they may find a combo that is faster for them. In TC everyone will be faster on the more expensive/better tire unless they are terrible, and then does it really matter what tires they run?

All 12th scale tires are around 10 bucks a set. let people run what they want.

Kenny L was running tires that mostly everyone else was not at the IIC, but it was just because he wanted a more agressive car than others. Did this cause him to win the race? No his perfect driving and complete package caused him to win the race. Fast laps were the same for most of the guys in the A main, Kenny was just able to do more of them consistently.
Preach on Brother Larry!!!
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:36 AM   #50
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i feel like i have pointed out fairly clearly that this idea is for STOCK only. not for every single 1/12 car that is ever set on any track any where in the world ever again. i am not saying that every club and track in the country has to change their rules.

i only run carpet, so that is all i am talking about. i guess i should have made that clear as well.

obviously there are plenty of people that think this is a worth while idea. i think it would be sweet to see a big race like vegas or birds give it a shot(i left out cleveland because it is quite clear that ian is dead set against this already)

obviously, if you are so advanced in your superior tuning and set up skills in 1/12, if you did not like the spec tire for stock you would have no problem running 13.5.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:54 AM   #51
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I'd like to address the "tune the car to work" argument, since everyone wants to look at how well a TC on spec tires can be made to work.

On a TC in the front end and rear end available adjustments are:
dampening [shocks]
springs
toe
caster [c-hub swap]
roll center [shims]
ackermann [shims or quick set steering post]
ride height [shock collars]
droop [set screw]
steering lock [radio]
camber gain [upper link length]
anti-dive/pro-dive [anti-squat/pro-squat at the rear] [shims or eccentric holders]
wheel base [shims]
track width [shims or arm holders]

On a pan car front end adjustments available are dependent on the front end used, but can include:
dampening [king pins or damper tubes]
springs [usually on the king pin, requires resetting multiple other settings]
toe
caster
roll center [only on certain front ends, OR with creative shimming]
ackermann [through shimming and/or repositioning steering servo]
ride height [shims under front end or set screws with double a-arm front end, affects other settings]
droop [shim, check, shim, recheck, etc... or set screws with double a-arm FE]
steering lock [radio, but depends on ackermann settings and turnbuckle installation]
Camber gain [top arm length/caster]
anti-dive/pro-dive - Not available
wheel base - Not available
Track width - shims

At the rear of a pan car adjustments include:
ride height [shims or eccentric axle bearing holders]
droop [shock length]
spring [main and side]
dampening [shock and damper tubes]
roll center - Not available
wheel base [special axle bearing holders, otherwise Not available]
track width [Shims]
Anti-squat/pro-squat - Not available

At first glance, it would seem a pan car is quite adjustable, and it is, but what you don't see is the TIME required to make some of the changes. I've spent an entire night before a race setting my front end, only to have to reset everything again when I notice bump steer or more/less ackermann than I was looking for. So many tuning adjustments are dependent or affect each other that you almost never change just one thing.

I like 1/12, but making quick changes to setup I find a lot easier with the TC, without swapping tires. When running 1/12, if I like the balance, but want more steering, I might change front tires, if the car gets loopy at the end of a run, I might go to a less aggressive rear tire.

I've seen guys that didn't want to change tire compounds through the day take their car home in pieces, trying to tune just the chassis and their driving style.

As said before, if you guys want to spec something at your local track, good luck. The current trend of spec'ing everything in every class doesn't help the class in the long term.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:01 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by al dente View Post
i feel like i have pointed out fairly clearly that this idea is for STOCK only. not for every single 1/12 car that is ever set on any track any where in the world ever again. i am not saying that every club and track in the country has to change their rules.

i only run carpet, so that is all i am talking about. i guess i should have made that clear as well.

obviously there are plenty of people that think this is a worth while idea. i think it would be sweet to see a big race like vegas or birds give it a shot(i left out cleveland because it is quite clear that ian is dead set against this already)

obviously, if you are so advanced in your superior tuning and set up skills in 1/12, if you did not like the spec tire for stock you would have no problem running 13.5.
Stock is the only class a lot of clubs run.
So this idea reaches further than you may have considered.

I took time off while the WGT rules came into play, so I don't know the roots of that.

Did it start like this, or was it a 2 manufacture spec tire from the start ?
At Vegas it turned into 1 mfg thankfully hopping in at the last moment to supply tires.

So much trouble for a class that is already doing well.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:05 AM   #53
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Spec tires for 12th has got to be the most ridiculous thought. While I understand why people think it may be a good idea, the truth is, no, it really is not.

First, 12th scale, no matter what kind of spec'ing is not really a beginners class, so why try to make it way. Most new racers do not see the minute changes and tweaks to 12th scale cars, and trying to " work around " a spec set of tires would be infuriating, and they would go buy a slash or a taxicab as I have heard Ian call them...

Second, we have a few combinations that work, and they work pretty much everywhere, so pick a combo and make it work. ( kind of personal spec'ing ). The only place a spec tire would make any kind of sense is at the club level, and they are pretty much spec's anyhow, kind of Darwinesque... So what is the point.

In EVERY type of racing. People look for an advantage, and they try different things, a 10 dollar set of tires is not make or break. In a class like 12th scale, you NEED to keep the experienced racers in it, it will wither away without that experience. They have raced it for 20+ years, and have seen all the changes, if they feel a spec tire is bad idea.... well it probably is.

another thing while on my soap box ...

Club or newer racers want to get the most out of their tires anyhow, and will not cut them down to the size that is needed to win at any competitive track. The point here... is does not matter the tire, to be competitive you have to whack it down pretty low... so your buying tires , no matter what they are.. pretty frequently. Whats the the big deal buying a different set here and there to "try" and find a better combination for the individual... and on that point... I am sure spec tires will have a "sweet spot" in diameter, and that will be track to track, car to car.. blah blah.... not really spec anyhow... Tires are tires.. and 12th scale tires are cheap.... You want to bitch about tires.. go run offroad... what a joke.


who knows, I am pretty much full of sh^& anyhow
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:16 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by al dente View Post
obviously, if you are so advanced in your superior tuning and set up skills in 1/12, if you did not like the spec tire for stock you would have no problem running 13.5.
One must never confuse tuning and set-up skills with the ability to actually wheel a car.

I just don't see how spec tires at a big race would be advantageous. In order to broaden my knowledge base on the issue, let me ask this question.

At Vegas, did you run a tire combo that was different than what you run at you home track Mario? If so, what led you to run that different combination?

If the answer is yes, how would you have felt if you were forced to run the tires that didn't work for you, but someone else running a different chassis, and body combination happens to have an awesome car on those tires? At that point you'd be forced to scramble to find a set-up that would work on those tires, which might even force you to change bodies. Yet if you had the option of running the tires you're familiar with, you could just run them and be done......

Just playin' devil's advocate at this point.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:43 AM   #55
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My only point is this........
when I travel with my 1/12th scale car to the bigger races (which are held on track conditions that I'm not real familiar with), I'm compelled to bring black fronts, magenta fronts, grey fronts, and sometimes pink fronts. And I also feel the need to bring yellow rears, greylo rears, pink rears, magenta rears, and maybe even some white rears. As others have said, the cars are very sensitive to tire choice. At my home track, I already know what combo is going work, so it's a none issue there. But at an unfamiliar track, where it is unknown to me what tire combo is going to work best, it's important to have a variety of choices in order to be fully prepared. Since one needs to have multiple sets of whatever tire selection is settled upon for the weekend.......that means bringing quite a few tires to a travel race in order to be fully prepared.

By contrast, I can travel to the same travel race with my WGT car knowing that I'm going to be running just the lilacs since those are the only tires allowable. For the WGT, only 2 sets of tires are needed for the weekend. For the smaller car, I bring more like 12 to 15 pairs of rears and 9 to 12 pairs of fronts. That's a pretty fat tire bill. Running a spec tire at a travel race would mean needing to bring way less tires. This is the point that I want to make..........ie that it would save a great deal of cost if there were no uncertainty about which tires were going to be the ones to run. One last point,......at a travel race, there are only a couple of practice runs, 3 or 4 qualifiers and then the main event. That's not enough track time to try out a various tire combos, so there is often the feeling that a different tire package may have worked better if only there was enough time to try it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:57 AM   #56
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No way to the spec tires. I'm relatively new to 1/12th but asking around at my club revealed that most are running a narrow range of tires regardless of chassis. I've raced at other tracks and found what worked on my carpet was undriveable on theirs. When this happens is is fairly easy to ask what the locals run, spend 20-30 dollars on tires and have a chance of being competitive without wasting a whole day trying to get the wrong tire to work. In this case a spec tire hurts the less experienced more as they likely do not have the knowledge to tune around a non-optimal tire.

Last thing, nobody is forced to buy anything, especially when racing for nothing at the club level. If anyone wants to run one compound of tires and forget about it, then have at it and enjoy the hobby. Just don't make everyone else have to do it.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:38 AM   #57
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Stock is the only class a lot of clubs run.
So this idea reaches further than you may have considered.

I took time off while the WGT rules came into play, so I don't know the roots of that.

Did it start like this, or was it a 2 manufacture spec tire from the start ?
At Vegas it turned into 1 mfg thankfully hopping in at the last moment to supply tires.

So much trouble for a class that is already doing well.
how does this reach further than i may have considered? i do not make the rules for your track. lets say snowbirds decides to go with a spec tire. how does that effect YOUR track? your track sets its own rules.

there are different manf. who make spec tires for wgt. usually at big races the race director picks one well in advance of the race. in the case of vegas, since jaco was a title sponsor, jaco was the spec tire. due to jaco being jaco, they were not able to get the tires to the race. crc was called to see if they could get their tires to the race, and that ended up being the tire for this year. just like in 1/12 the jaco wgt rim and the crc wgt rim have different offsets and the car needs to be set up accordingly. i have also been to smaller races that state any manf. wgt spec tire can be used in the class. it works both ways.

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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
One must never confuse tuning and set-up skills with the ability to actually wheel a car.

I just don't see how spec tires at a big race would be advantageous. In order to broaden my knowledge base on the issue, let me ask this question.

At Vegas, did you run a tire combo that was different than what you run at you home track Mario? If so, what led you to run that different combination?

If the answer is yes, how would you have felt if you were forced to run the tires that didn't work for you, but someone else running a different chassis, and body combination happens to have an awesome car on those tires? At that point you'd be forced to scramble to find a set-up that would work on those tires, which might even force you to change bodies. Yet if you had the option of running the tires you're familiar with, you could just run them and be done......

Just playin' devil's advocate at this point.
at vegas i ran mag/mag, mag/yellow, blk/yellow, gray/yellow, and gray/graylow. 5 different tire combos. why did i change? because i had the option. did it help? no. i qualified 14th, but it was not because of tire. i simply hit too much shit. would a spec tire have made me do any better? you can argue this either way. perhaps my combo would not have worked with the spec tire as well as what i was on. but i would have had to make changes to the chassis to try and better my situation. changes that when you drive the car you can say "that worked" or "man, am i an idiot", not "was it the tire change or the chassis change?" looking at it another way, instead of farting around with different tire combos, if i were on a spec tire, i would not have a different feeling car each time i went on the track, and therefore might have driven better by having a more consistent car each time i set it down. also not having to bring 3 or 4 sets of each tire compound because you just don't know what is going to work the best when you get there would be nice. also take into consideration the time spent truing all those different tires. time that could have been more useful if spent drinking.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:56 PM   #58
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:58 PM   #59
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also take into consideration the time spent truing all those different tires. time that could have been more useful if spent drinking.
In that case Pink rear/Magenta front for all!!!!

I can honestly say that I've never been to a big race where I've tried five different tire combos. For me it almost always ends up being yellow/black or pink/magenta. I have on VERY rare occasions utilized a yellow/magenta, but still, that leaves me with only two different front, and two different rear compounds to bring with me.

We also need to quit using WGT as the bar for what we could potentially achieve with a spec 12th tire. The way the cars behave is radically different. The split in front to rear contact patch is far greater on the WGT, and the car is far less "Square" dimensionally than the 12th scale car. This adds up to a less stable, twitchier, and more temperamental 12th scale platform. Tire selection is the best way to deal with this.
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:08 PM   #60
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"In that case Pink rear/Magenta front for all!!!!"

that would be a great choice. I'd be in full support if those were ever identifed as the spec 1/12th scale tire for the races that I travel to. Knowing the tire choice in advance would save me a bunch and I'd be very appreciative.

I hereby nominate Ian for race director........Oh,wait..........Ian already is the race director. Long live the benevolent mr Ruggles.
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