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Old 10-13-2011, 07:31 AM   #76
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Default 6 channel oscilloscope?

Does anyone know: Could you check for timing with two channel oscilloscope (and just move the leads from phase to phase) or would you actually need a 6 channel oscilloscope?
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:35 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Or you could just hand out a LOCKED motor and go open esc........

Way easier for race management........
+1....
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:42 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by TeamORCA View Post
First of all, it is not my intention here to start any discussion or argument by posting. I am merely clarifying some facts that seemed to be misunderstood.

Before the ROAR Carpet Nationals earlier this year, ORCA came out with an updated ESC of the Vritra called Mk2 - due to an update of hardware and software. Even though the look of the Mk2 is the same as before, but because of the changes, we decided to register the ESC at ROAR as a zero degree timing ESC again 2 weeks before the Nationals. (ROAR at that time did not require any testing for ESCs such as batteries or motors. It's just a registration procedure and the ESC will be listed as legal.)

Upon registration, there were some confusion regarding the oscilloscope output between ROAR and ORCA. Since the timing to the event was very tight, so ROAR wrote to us instructing us not to run the ESC at the Nationals. And since the original one looks the same, it was not allowed to be used neither.

Please note that up until then, ROAR did not have one of our ESCs to test (which was not required at that time). We were hoping to resolve the issue at the Nationals. The mistake we made was that we ran the ESC before we clear up the issue with ROAR. As a result, the penalty was handed down.

The penalty was a result of not obeying instructions from ROAR race director not to run our ESC, but ,not as some believe, caught cheating. ROAR did not have any oscilloscope at the carpet national, and nobody's ESC was checked.

ORCA USA understands ROAR's decision and had no objection. We kept good relationship with ROAR and are supportive of ROAR's effort to create fair racing classes. We do not have any thing to hide regarding our ESC. Next time at any national level big race, if an ORCA team driver wins a non-timing event, feel free to go to them right after tech and ask them to trade with you your favorite ESC. They will do so.

The above can be verified with ROAR and I have email also for back up.

Any other comments, please pm or email us directly.

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I still do not see the Orca products on the approval list for ROAR (in non-timing)...is that something you are working on?
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:47 AM   #79
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:20 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by TrevCoult View Post
That's the biggest problem. It is just plain impossible to uninvent technology, and that is what blinky is effectively trying to do.

Far better to keep it open, that way no one can be accused of cheating in the first place (as well as it being kinder on the motors, making good batteries less relevant etc.). If speeds need limiting, just do it with higher wind motors, or even go to 380 size.

Back on subject, the differences between speedos in blinky is small in general. Motors and cells are now far more important again.

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I don't know if 380 size motors is the way to go, but certainly I think they would work for 1/12 pan cars.

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You didn't mis-read anything, you're just smart enough to call bull$h!t on both statements......................
Just had to ask since I noticed on the IIC pre-signup list Super Stock 17.5 TC was the largest registered class, and all the controversy is still on the blinky class.

The only controversy I can recall with boosted is Tekin doing their homework better, and more secretively than anyone else, causing the backlash to "level the playing field" with Blinky. Now a fair selection of manufacturers have "caught up" to Tekin in boosted classes, and we have more threads than ever about which ESC, Motor or Battery will give the tiniest advantage possible in Blinky!

Want to cut down on cheating and recreate a "stock" class? Lock the motor, up the wind, cap the gear ratio, THEN you can quit counting LED blinks and buying every brand out there to try and find the one that cuts .2 off your best single lap.

Guys everywhere complain about how expensive boosted is, and then talk about the 7-8 motors they've tried and the 4 ESCs they have, like it's cheaper than me buying a motor every 3 years, and rolling the same RS I've had even longer.

Blinky sucks.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:34 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by HarryLeach View Post
It's amazing how hard it is to put the genie back in the bottle

I don't know if 380 size motors is the way to go, but certainly I think they would work for 1/12 pan cars.


Just had to ask since I noticed on the IIC pre-signup list Super Stock 17.5 TC was the largest registered class, and all the controversy is still on the blinky class.

The only controversy I can recall with boosted is Tekin doing their homework better, and more secretively than anyone else, causing the backlash to "level the playing field" with Blinky. Now a fair selection of manufacturers have "caught up" to Tekin in boosted classes, and we have more threads than ever about which ESC, Motor or Battery will give the tiniest advantage possible in Blinky!

Want to cut down on cheating and recreate a "stock" class? Lock the motor, up the wind, cap the gear ratio, THEN you can quit counting LED blinks and buying every brand out there to try and find the one that cuts .2 off your best single lap.

Guys everywhere complain about how expensive boosted is, and then talk about the 7-8 motors they've tried and the 4 ESCs they have, like it's cheaper than me buying a motor every 3 years, and rolling the same RS I've had even longer.

Blinky sucks.
Noone has caught up to Tekin in the Timing classes. I would venture to say that 95 percent of the top 30 in the Boosted 17.5 class at the IIC were running tekin speedos.

I tried to run an lrp stock spec and that didnt work. It wasnt fast enough and if it was it would blow up motors. Tekin still owns the boosted classes and that is fact. Good for them they did their homework and are reaping the rewards.
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:37 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace View Post
Noone has caught up to Tekin in the Timing classes. I would venture to say that 95 percent of the top 30 in the Boosted 17.5 class at the IIC were running tekin speedos.

I tried to run an lrp stock spec and that didnt work. It wasnt fast enough and if it was it would blow up motors. Tekin still owns the boosted classes and that is fact. Good for them they did their homework and are reaping the rewards.
Most of that other 5% were probably running ORCA

Have you tried an ORCA vritra vtc pro spec mkII, Larry? Setting up the boost and turbo settings is a little weird if you are used to setting up a Tekin RS or probably most other ESCs (I think Tekin settings make far more sense), but once you get it set right, it's fast and super smooth.

As was mentioned on page one, we're sort of in ORCA country up here. The vast majority of the best drivers around here use ORCA for boosted and mod. I do think you can probably get a tiny bit more rip and maybe some more top speed out of a Tekin, but I think most people will put in faster and more consistent laps with the ORCA, because of the smooth power delivery.

I can tell you when I first put my ORCA in to try it out for boosted 17.5, I totally expected that I would be swapping it back out for my RS pro, but it was such a pleasure to drive, I've kept it in my car and now just use the Tekin for blinky racing.
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:52 AM   #83
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A regular analog 2 channel oscilloscope works fine.....they don't fall out of calibration as some people claim either. You are measuring a very simple wave form.......not something that needs to be super accurate. I did it with mine, which has been calibrated, and was able to detect the timing in the speed control.....I then used a scope I knew was messed up.....still detected it, even though it was 20 years old.

I picked mine up on craigslist for $100.........works perfect, was only a $450 unit at Frys.

Hacking of speed controls has already happened........cheating with motors has already happened. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I think you are more likely to see it on the local level, where tech and enforcement is MUCH more limited than on the national level, though it happening there is going to happen, if it has already not....

As for the rest of this thread...........why we continue to limit technology and then deal with thread after thread, drama after drama, etc etc is beyond me. Open speed controls is the only way to go. If an idiot can't figure out how to use a simple ass GUI to program his speedo, then wtf is he doing racing RC cars.......there is stuff WAY more complicated than tuning a speedo, not to mention how hard is it to search the internet for settings or ask the local fast guy?

Of course I have heard the "It's too fast" crap.........well, that's what we get when we go from 13.5, 17.5, 21.5 back to 17.5 all being equal to a stock motor before we knew wtf was going on..........we all know who to thank for those comparisons

Later EddieO

Quote:
Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty View Post
Does anyone know: Could you check for timing with two channel oscilloscope (and just move the leads from phase to phase) or would you actually need a 6 channel oscilloscope?
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:55 AM   #84
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Novak Kinetic gets my vote ! Blinky, boosted, Mod, whatever , and you can run your 3.5t safely too, unlike tekins !!!! I have not seen any Orca esc's yet .....
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:59 AM   #85
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Novak Kinetic gets my vote ! Blinky, boosted, Mod, whatever , and you can run your 3.5t safely too, unlike tekins !!!! I have not seen any Orca esc's yet .....
Yeah and its slow compared to a tekin in the boosted classses.


At the highest level the smoothness of a speedo only matters if they are close in speed.

Oh and have you see anyone really push the limits of a kinetic in mod. Because I saw the same guy blow 4 or so of them up at one race trying to run a 5.5 on high traction.

That coupled with the fact that it isnt as fast as the Tekin in boosted make it basically pointless. This is the main reason that the only people I ever see running them are sponsored by Novak.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:16 AM   #86
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overhere i see more and more hobbywings in 1/12 scale. In other 1/10 classes i see the same. If tekin would be the fastest why would i see more hobbywings? Maybe there is just more experience with tekins in the US and that is why many are using them there..not sure?

The number one 1/12 driver at my club has a tekin. The number two a hobbywing. Fact is the number one driver is a very good 1/12 scale driver with number 2 in very very close persuit. Not so much to do with the esc but more with driving skills. Maybe this year it will be different. The fastest 1/12car on the straight that blows all drivers away is using a GM75...go figure.

On our 1/8 track the tekin and hobbywing have the same topspeed in the tc 13.5t open esc class. In other classes it is the same.

Sorry to say but LRP with it's profiles is sooo 2008.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:34 AM   #87
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overhere i see more and more hobbywings in 1/12 scale. In other 1/10 classes i see the same. If tekin would be the fastest why would i see more hobbywings? Maybe there is just more experience with tekins in the US and that is why many are using them there..not sure?

The number one 1/12 driver at my club has a tekin. The number two a hobbywing. Fact is the number one driver is a very good 1/12 scale driver with number 2 in very very close persuit. Not so much to do with the esc but more with driving skills. Maybe this year it will be different. The fastest 1/12car on the straight that blows all drivers away is using a GM75...go figure.

On our 1/8 track the tekin and hobbywing have the same topspeed in the tc 13.5t open esc class. In other classes it is the same.

Sorry to say but LRP with it's profiles is sooo 2008.
Its because of the size of the track you race on....larger tracks the HobbyWing or Speedpassion ESC's will be faster. On Smaller tracks here in the US its the opposite.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace View Post
Noone has caught up to Tekin in the Timing classes. I would venture to say that 95 percent of the top 30 in the Boosted 17.5 class at the IIC were running tekin speedos.

I tried to run an lrp stock spec and that didnt work. It wasnt fast enough and if it was it would blow up motors. Tekin still owns the boosted classes and that is fact. Good for them they did their homework and are reaping the rewards.
No offense Larry, or to Tekin for that matter (they were well ahead of the curve) but at the TITC this year, with the 11.5 boosted class, not a single Tekin was present in the A-main... that says something to me about the quality of all the speedo's out there now.
You literally can pick a speedo, and if you spend a bit of time setting it up, it can be as fast as anything else, IMO
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:13 PM   #89
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No offense Larry, or to Tekin for that matter (they were well ahead of the curve) but at the TITC this year, with the 11.5 boosted class, not a single Tekin was present in the A-main... that says something to me about the quality of all the speedo's out there now.
You literally can pick a speedo, and if you spend a bit of time setting it up, it can be as fast as anything else, IMO
Just for reference I would like to see the results from the TITC 11.5 class.

Were there any former world champions in the class? I'm not being confrontation just curious.

Im guessing hobbywing/speedpassion was the big speedo in that class? That is an asian company unlike Tekin.

I'm speaking from experience. Ive tried most of the boosted speedos out there and none are as fast as a Tekin in a straight line.

I'm not sponsored by tekin just speaking from experience.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:33 PM   #90
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Very passionate discussion going on here. Obviously their are some key issues that the racing community would like to see resolved concerning Spec/Blinky classes. Seems to me like a Locked endbell motor, spec tire, max FDR and open ESC would be the way to go. Focus on the aspects that can easily and affordably be evaluated in Tech and leave ESC's & LiPo's up to the racers choosing.
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