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Old 10-13-2011, 01:25 AM   #61
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What about buying spec ESC's and motors at every event just like Spec tires ? Return the esc and motor back after the event and get your money back...lol...yeah right... Too much control kills the fun !!! I have only one solution : a special new transponder system that also connects to the esc and motor , and feeds back all the timing info to the race director's computer !!!!! Anytime the system detects cheating, it shuts everything down in that car which the marshalls put aside quietly for disqualification later !
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:28 AM   #62
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The more that situations like this occur (a banned ESC being allowed at a major race for whatever reason) the more it seems that "blinky" will be made to fail by the cheater attitude.

Looks like the only answer will be spec motor/ESC combinations that cannot be programmed externally.
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:31 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by bertrandsv87 View Post
What about buying spec ESC's and motors at every event just like Spec tires ? Return the esc and motor back after the event and get your money back...lol...yeah right... Too much control kills the fun !!! I have only one solution : a special new transponder system that also connects to the esc and motor , and feeds back all the timing info to the race director's computer !!!!! Anytime the system detects cheating, it shuts everything down in that car which the marshalls put aside quietly for disqualification later !
Or you could just hand out a LOCKED motor and go open esc........

Way easier for race management........
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:32 AM   #64
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oops
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:32 AM   #65
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oops again
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:59 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
I love you Mario, but there's nothing gayer than having to buy a different ESC for every class you race.

If an ESC can't be updated or tailored to different classes in this day and age, then it's a joke.

Plus, you don't necessarily have to have a programmable speedo to cheat. There are tons of people that could program a few degrees of timing advance into any speedo on the market, all while the light blinks. The same guys could do it on a non-adjustable speedo like the old spheres. It's already been done, and NO reasonable amount of pre or post race tech will be able to find it.
That's the biggest problem. It is just plain impossible to uninvent technology, and that is what blinky is effectively trying to do.

Far better to keep it open, that way no one can be accused of cheating in the first place (as well as it being kinder on the motors, making good batteries less relevant etc.). If speeds need limiting, just do it with higher wind motors, or even go to 380 size.

Back on subject, the differences between speedos in blinky is small in general. Motors and cells are now far more important again.

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:47 AM   #67
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I could guarantee you the the other ESC manufacturers have tested each other's speedos. Tekin, LRP, Novak, Speed Passion, Hobbywing etc. are all legal. It is Orca that were idiots, and they have been punished for it.

Trev[/QUOTE]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I was at the carpet nats this year and happened to be pitted next to the Orca racers in stock 17.5 touring car. After they were told they could not run the current version of ESC, due to whatever reason ROAR had disallowed it, those same drivers put other brand ESC's in their cars for the final qualifying round, and turned in the same TQ times they had done with the ORCA esc. This was because they would have done that with ANY stock/blinky speed control. The drivers were that good and their cars were set-up properly. Please do not make statements that are not based on facts. This is the most disappointing thing I see when reading these threads. In this case it makes those drivers look as though they had some unfair advantage, when in truth, they are truly skilled in both driving and set-up skills, and proved it.

I realize it is hard to know what is fact, since it is easy to just read what someone is writing here on these forums. You will have to decide whether what I am stating is accurate as well. I can only relay what I firsthand witnessed in this particular case, and will leave it at that.

I do not run for any manufacturer and have never even tried an ORCA speed control. I have heard they are smooth, maybe that allows for those with less skill on the throttle to come out of corners better which would carry more speed onto straights and those with great skill to do that even better. That could explain faster overall top speed in some cases and could be true of any speed control if could be properly tuned and then driven to that potential. This same thing applies to other aspects of our vehicles. If you have a better designed chassis, you should also be able to gain more corner speed and exit speed. The list goes on. If we were to get all the cars to exactly the same speed and all drivers got to the same level of ability, every race would be a tie. Lets all go out and race to the best of our abilities and enjoy knowing that we are doing it with whatever level of effort it takes to get where each individual takes it. If someone choses to circumvent the effort that it takes, they have already lost.

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Old 10-13-2011, 04:25 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldrcr View Post
You are entitled to your opinion, but I was at the carpet nats this year and happened to be pitted next to the Orca racers in stock 17.5 touring car. After they were told they could not run the current version of ESC, due to whatever reason ROAR had disallowed it, those same drivers put other brand ESC's in their cars for the final qualifying round, and turned in the same TQ times they had done with the ORCA esc. This was because they would have done that with ANY stock/blinky speed control. The drivers were that good and their cars were set-up properly. Please do not make statements that are not based on facts. This is the most disappointing thing I see when reading these threads. In this case it makes those drivers look as though they had some unfair advantage, when in truth, they are truly skilled in both driving and set-up skills, and proved it.

I realize it is hard to know what is fact, since it is easy to just read what someone is writing here on these forums. You will have to decide whether what I am stating is accurate as well. I can only relay what I firsthand witnessed in this particular case, and will leave it at that.

I do not run for any manufacturer and have never even tried an ORCA speed control. I have heard they are smooth, maybe that allows for those with less skill on the throttle to come out of corners better which would carry more speed onto straights and those with great skill to do that even better. That could explain faster overall top speed in some cases and could be true of any speed control if could be properly tuned and then driven to that potential. This same thing applies to other aspects of our vehicles. If you have a better designed chassis, you should also be able to gain more corner speed and exit speed. The list goes on. If we were to get all the cars to exactly the same speed and all drivers got to the same level of ability, every race would be a tie. Lets all go out and race to the best of our abilities and enjoy knowing that we are doing it with whatever level of effort it takes to get where each individual takes it. If someone choses to circumvent the effort that it takes, they have already lost.

-a
Sorry, not opinion, fact. Nothing against the racers themselves as I have no idea whether they knew or not, but ROAR found that the ORCA ESC still had timing on it after the manufacturer was warned. So ROAR have banned ORCA speedos from their events, fact. This is on the ROAR web site, fact. They should also do this to any other manufacturer caught cheating. Note I said manufacturer as with this technology it is quite possible for the driver not to know, they are relying on what the manufacturer tells them.

Please do not say what is written down in black and white is just opinion.

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Old 10-13-2011, 05:40 AM   #69
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First of all, it is not my intention here to start any discussion or argument by posting. I am merely clarifying some facts that seemed to be misunderstood.

Before the ROAR Carpet Nationals earlier this year, ORCA came out with an updated ESC of the Vritra called Mk2 - due to an update of hardware and software. Even though the look of the Mk2 is the same as before, but because of the changes, we decided to register the ESC at ROAR as a zero degree timing ESC again 2 weeks before the Nationals. (ROAR at that time did not require any testing for ESCs such as batteries or motors. It's just a registration procedure and the ESC will be listed as legal.)

Upon registration, there were some confusion regarding the oscilloscope output between ROAR and ORCA. Since the timing to the event was very tight, so ROAR wrote to us instructing us not to run the ESC at the Nationals. And since the original one looks the same, it was not allowed to be used neither.

Please note that up until then, ROAR did not have one of our ESCs to test (which was not required at that time). We were hoping to resolve the issue at the Nationals. The mistake we made was that we ran the ESC before we clear up the issue with ROAR. As a result, the penalty was handed down.

The penalty was a result of not obeying instructions from ROAR race director not to run our ESC, but ,not as some believe, caught cheating. ROAR did not have any oscilloscope at the carpet national, and nobody's ESC was checked.

ORCA USA understands ROAR's decision and had no objection. We kept good relationship with ROAR and are supportive of ROAR's effort to create fair racing classes. We do not have any thing to hide regarding our ESC. Next time at any national level big race, if an ORCA team driver wins a non-timing event, feel free to go to them right after tech and ask them to trade with you your favorite ESC. They will do so.

The above can be verified with ROAR and I have email also for back up.

Any other comments, please pm or email us directly.

With best regards,
Hans Tang

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Old 10-13-2011, 05:58 AM   #70
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Does anyone know what the actual spec is on how soon after or before a signal a wind can be fired? I am sure we are talking really small time, but am curious what is really required.
IMHO the whole open vs spec speedo has been beat to death. Pick some thing and lets go racing. Racers will gravitate to the classes they like and the preferred class will win out in the long run.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:58 AM   #71
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Also, to be fair, the following is stated in the ROAR announcement.

"The six month suspension will take effect 5/1/11, and assuming a satisfactory agreement can be made before the 11/1/11 expiration, the ORCA ESCs can be considered for use in ROAR competition again."

Assuming the agreement has happened ORCA speedos will be allowed in ROAR events again from next month.

So from that point on we can all assume everyone's speedos are legal whatever the manufacturer, can't we?

Now we can go back to the important stuff, called racing.

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Old 10-13-2011, 06:01 AM   #72
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I love you Larry fairtrace.

But the fact still remains the same. Any speedo that can have software loaded at the track should be banned from blinky, and there are different versions of 212.
Look at the GTB2's, I can change brain board faster than I can hook it up to a laptop and program it. All brushless ESC's have a program and micro processor. the only issue is how easy it is to change it.
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Old 10-13-2011, 06:12 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by slotracer577 View Post
Does anyone know what the actual spec is on how soon after or before a signal a wind can be fired? I am sure we are talking really small time, but am curious what is really required.
IMHO the whole open vs spec speedo has been beat to death. Pick some thing and lets go racing. Racers will gravitate to the classes they like and the preferred class will win out in the long run.
The British version of the rule is in Appendix 2 of the 12th scale rules here.

http://www.brca.org/sites/default/fi...%202011-12.pdf

I believe the ROAR one is pretty much the same.

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Old 10-13-2011, 06:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TrevCoult View Post
The British version of the rule is in Appendix 2 of the 12th scale rules here.

http://www.brca.org/sites/default/fi...%202011-12.pdf

I believe the ROAR one is pretty much the same.

Trev
It was posted somewhere on RCtech recently, can't seem to find it now, but yes, it's the same.

Quote:
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Look at the GTB2's, I can change brain board faster than I can hook it up to a laptop and program it. All brushless ESC's have a program and micro processor. the only issue is how easy it is to change it.
WHEN ROAR, or any major event, finally bans updateable speedos COMPLETELY, this is what you're going to see. "Team ONLY" software/chips are going to be the new norm, and everyone will gravitate to whichever speedo allows the quickest/cheapest/easiest swap of boards. Instead of free software downloads, you're going to have to pull boards and send them in, at much greater expense and time.

I'm thinking that perhaps what is needed is getting back to tech that does a real, honest, comprehensive complete initial check, seals motors and ESC cases upon initial tech, and verifies stickers before each round. Back in the day, a form of this happened. Somewhere along the line we threw up our hads in the RC crowd and said bought the line that 'technology is too complex for us to understand, so we're simply not going to deal with understanding the tech part of it' and let it all slide.

I don't really think that at the top level they're cheating, but something like that would go a long way to "removing all doubt". It's incumbent upon the race director, and his staff (or investors/sponsors), to ensure a level playing field within the rules. Can't do that without rules, tech, and enforcement well within the public eye.

All this craziness with ORCA not following directions from tech at ROAR and this latest race simply brings us one step closer to that day.

I don't compete at major events. I don't race at a ROAR rules track, but ROAR does control the industry through interaction with BRCA and other sanctioning bodies. Together, they influence what the industry produces for sale. Right now, I don't like any of the esc offerings that do not allow for updateable software. I only hope that the major manufacturers already have their finger on the "start" button at the factory for some new products to fill the need when ROAR et al decides that enough is enough. I'd hate to have to wire my orange stuff back in.

They floated the weather balloon of warning last year. We have been warned.....
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Old 10-13-2011, 06:43 AM   #75
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Simplest solution is to run non-sensored esc and motors, no way of programming them at all! I used to run a schulze 5 years ago and it was great, super smooth and loads of grunt. Basically, to go faster you had to use a lower turn motor, no other way of making them quicker!

Would solve all of the "blink" issues instantly.
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