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Old 10-12-2011, 01:49 PM   #31
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Didnt mean for a can of worms to be open but heres the deal:

This oval race (one of the biggest races in the country btw) has changed its format the last few years. First with an expert driver list to keep Modified drivers out of stock. Lately, with all this new found technology, modified is insane, so for the size of the track this event has been held at, Open 13.5 replaced modified. This year, 13.5 blinky mode is used for the "expert" drivers (utilizing Roar guidelines for the ESC), while 17.5 w/ Novak Havoc ESC for the non expert/sponsored guys.


I know driving and chassis setup is all very important. Thats not an issue at all.

These classes utilize a spec motor and battery, (Novak and SMC, respectively). Unfortunate bc I run Epics all year round, but, this being the biggest race of the year for dirtoval, on a very, very high bite track, 2 of the 3 "Expert" classes use the spec equipment, unlike years past.

Already been through the whole "Find a good stator/Rotor and lipo" deal. Got it already, doubt I can find anything better. So where else do you look but the ESC.

I do firmly believe that there are ESC's out there better than others, even in blinky mode, no matter how small the difference may be. No two ESC's (by different mfg's) are identical.


I appreciate everyones input thus far. Keep it coming please.
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:14 PM   #32
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Brad was running LRP SXX ESC the whole time with Speed Passion MMM motor for the blinky class.
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:22 PM   #33
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We must have finally hit 88 miles per hour....this debate starts EVERY year about this time. Funny thing is, nothing big really changes in the top of the field, just a few places here and there.

Ever since the Tekin 208 debacle, ROAR has been checking software with an iron fist. If it ain't on the ROAR list, chances are it's not on the level.
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Old 10-12-2011, 03:57 PM   #34
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Ever since the Tekin 208 debacle, ROAR has been checking software with an iron fist. If it ain't on the ROAR list, chances are it's not on the level.
The ROAR list just says version 123 is legal, well ... what do they do at the actualy races to check that? Check for a version number and blinking light? LOL.

Say a driver goes to a manufacturer at a big race and says this is slow, the manufacturer asks what version of software do you have, the racer says the one that is publically available, the manufacturer then says oh, updates it with the "same version number" and it's faster all of a sudden. It still says 123 and blinks. Or how about when the team guys have a version that is not available for the public yet? In blinky I just need a little edge .. maybe 1 1/2 degrees instead of 9

Can version "123 average joe" be detected from the "123 team version"?

I'm a software engineer and I know how easy it is to output the numbers 123 and blink, which has little to do with the actual interworkings of the speedo.

Unless you can use the same techniques that ROAR uses to approve the software in the first place when teching a car at a race .. then I guess all you need to do is print out a number and have it blink and people believe it's legit.

Just saying ..
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Old 10-12-2011, 04:05 PM   #35
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The ROAR list just says version 123 is legal, well ... what do they do at the actualy races to check that? Check for a version number and blinking light? LOL.

Say a driver goes to a manufacturer at a big race and says this is slow, the manufacturer asks what version of software do you have, the racer says the one that is publically available, the manufacturer then says oh, updates it with the "same version number" and it's faster all of a sudden. It still says 123 and blinks. Or how about when the team guys have a version that is not available for the public yet? In blinky I just need a little edge .. maybe 1 1/2 degrees instead of 9

Can version "123 average joe" be detected from the "123 team version"?

I'm a software engineer and I know how easy it is to output the numbers 123 and blink, which has little to do with the actual interworkings of the speedo.

Unless you can use the same techniques that ROAR uses to approve the software in the first place when teching a car at a race .. then I guess all you need to do is print out a number and have it blink and people believe it's legit.

Just saying ..
Paranoia at it's finest. Getting caught doing something like that would have them banned for life, probably. Good for business, huh?
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:29 PM   #36
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Paranoia at it's finest. Getting caught doing something like that would have them banned for life, probably. Good for business, huh?
LOL .. just like Orca was banned huh = Amain finishes at IIC.

Take LRP for example, 4.4 was out way before a common racer like myself could get it. Team drivers had it .. perhaps under the "prototype" tag, but they raced it.

What wins on Sunday sells on Monday.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:39 PM   #37
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LOL .. just like Orca was banned huh = Amain finishes at IIC.

Take LRP for example, 4.4 was out way before a common racer like myself could get it. Team drivers had it .. perhaps under the "prototype" tag, but they raced it.

What wins on Sunday sells on Monday.
...and they were a sponsor of the race. There are quite a few in the industry, who also post here, supposedly 'in the know', who have speculated what went on there.....

If it was above board, it would stand the test of being drug out into the light......unless there's something to hide from the light of public discourse.

This debate pops up every year about this time. It'll flare again after the Snowbirds, too. Same issues, same stuff, no proof.

There are many who do not agree with 'prototype' anything at any paid entry race, much less at the top level. That's for their own home track testing. If it's not available for general release, shouldn't be legal, team or not, mod or stock, pro or sportsman!

...and I would also point out that NO ONE has yet produced, or confirmed the validity of, a hacked ESC. There have been rumors of the hacked oval mamba for quite some time now, but it's always "I heard some guy talking to some other guy about a friend of his, that knows someone, who read it on the internet, that they got a hacked ESC". No one's willing to confirm that they've actually laid eyes on one, much less held one, much less confirmed that it's been hacked.

Until then, I'm satisfied that there is no hack in the world that's going to help my cars. It's my driving that needs mod 1.2!
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:40 PM   #38
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Look, I am not going to throw people under the bus here. But I know for a fact that there are different versions of 212. You can question my character, or reliability all you want. But I know this for a fact. Take it or leave it. Call me an idiot or a liar, but it is fact.

It is my opinion that any speedo that can be programed or altered by an external source should not be allowed in blinky classes.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:48 PM   #39
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Look, I am not going to throw people under the bus here. But I know for a fact that there are different versions of 212. You can question my character, or reliability all you want. But I know this for a fact. Take it or leave it. Call me an idiot or a liar, but it is fact.

It is my opinion that any speedo that can be programed or altered by an external source should not be allowed in blinky classes.
No different versions of 212 at all. Your wrong about this. ALL Tekin drivers running blinky classes ran the same version of 212 that is available on the website. Period.

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Old 10-12-2011, 05:51 PM   #40
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Look, I am not going to throw people under the bus here. But I know for a fact that there are different versions of 212. You can question my character, or reliability all you want. But I know this for a fact. Take it or leave it. Call me an idiot or a liar, but it is fact.

It is my opinion that any speedo that can be programed or altered by an external source should not be allowed in blinky classes.
I'm not about to call anybody anything, but if you have PROOF that there are 2 different versions out of 212, that's cheating. If you keep that PROOF to yourself, you're aiding in cheating. You decide.

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No different versions of 212 at all. Your wrong about this. ALL Tekin drivers running blinky classes ran the same version of 212 that is available on the website. Period.

EA
.....and that's when the fight started. (Goes to get the popcorn)
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:08 PM   #41
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There are many who do not agree with 'prototype' anything at any paid entry race, much less at the top level. That's for their own home track testing. If it's not available for general release, shouldn't be legal, team or not, mod or stock, pro or sportsman!
100% Agree.

But you'll never know solely on a version number and blinking light. My comments were meant to point out what "can" happen. Overall it does not truely affect me at my current level, my car setup and driving are where I spend my time on.

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...and I would also point out that NO ONE has yet produced, or confirmed the validity of, a hacked ESC.
I don't know what the process would be for testing that at large events.

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Until then, I'm satisfied that there is no hack in the world that's going to help my cars. It's my driving that needs mod 1.2!
I'm still on 1.1, so make sure when you finalize 1.2 you send it over to me.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:13 PM   #42
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I don't know what the process would be for testing that at large events.
.
Its very easy. You hook the speedo up to an Osillioscope and check the wave pattern that ROAR and the Speedo manufactures have agreed upon that is zero timing for the class. If the wave pattern doesnt line up it has timing in it and is not legal. Not hard to do at all really.

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Old 10-12-2011, 06:26 PM   #43
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Its very easy. You hook the speedo up to an Osillioscope and check the wave pattern that ROAR and the Speedo manufactures have agreed upon that is zero timing for the class. If the wave pattern doesnt line up it has timing in it and is not legal. Not hard to do at all really.

EA
Does ROAR do that at it's races? I know they are more strict than IIC, Birds and Cleveland.

I didn't see that happening at IIC, unless I missed it .. perhaps adding that test to the 4 major races would alleviate some of these issues.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:31 PM   #44
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Does ROAR do that at it's races? I know they are more strict than IIC, Birds and Cleveland.

I didn't see that happening at IIC, unless I missed it .. perhaps adding that test to the 4 major races would alleviate some of these issues.
No ROAR does not do that at the races either. They do it when they approve the software and test all speedo's originally and save it for records. They just go off the blinky light sequence.

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Old 10-12-2011, 06:41 PM   #45
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I truly think that lax tech is one reason this hobby doesn't blow up. Because it seems that everyone thinks everyone else is cheating no matter who they are.

If tech was better people would not have excuses for being slow and just realize that hard work and dedication is the only thing that will make them better. NOT being the better cheater.


NO large races should allow motors to hit the track unless they were fully teched and sealed prior. The first brushless race I attended that did this was the Reedy race in 2008. I'm not sure why every race has still not adopted this rule.

Speedos should also be teched either pre race or post race. For example you have to come to tech. Load the software of the speed control you are using and have some sort of hologram sticker put on the plug going into the reciever that if it is removed you will fail tech. That's just a thought but needless to say something needs to be done.

I wouldn't be surprised if any or all of this was going on at this years IIC.

The person caught with a 13.5 in their car at the IIC was no faster in that race than they had been all week and people are saying it was a mistake. That to me is BS. I myself failed at car prep in the 13.5 main and it may of cost me the win. I may not of tightened my pod screws but I know for a fact I was sure what motor was in my car and knew it was legal because that is something that can have you DQ'ed.

People will always find a way to cheat and I think the Race organizers need to try and eliminate this as best as possible. And at most races I see little to no real tech other than ride height and weight which is probably the most insignificant of all things that can be teched.

I wont even get started on the orca thing. People that got them at the race had to gear down a couple teeth and picked up 3-4 mph on the straight away and had almost undriveable rip in the infield after doing so in the blinky touring class. To me that is not the spirit of a blinky class. You should be able to change to any legal speedo not change gearing and be exactly the same speed.

That speedo was legal at the IIC and anyone had the option to do so legally under the rules. The question is should it have been?

That is one of the major factors that contribute to me not running a blinky class at a big race again until something is done about tech and the rules. That and the fact that 17.5 is blinky is boring to me.

I want to join the group "People for harsher rules and stricter tech"

But I think I may be in the minority.
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