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Old 10-16-2011, 02:43 AM   #151
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Whether it's Boosted, Blinky, or Mod, The Complete Package is needed to be successful.

The Complete Package includes things you can't buy, like skill, practice time, the knowledge to know how to set your car up, and what changes to your setup are needed for the conditions at hand.

The Complete Package also includes things you can buy, like motors, batteries, tires, chassis, speed controls, servos, bodies, and tuning option parts.

For every person on here talking about how hard ESC's are to program to run boosted, there is at least 1 thread on this same forum dedicated to tuning them.

For every person on here talking about how drivers set their cars up better when they run blinky, I would like to see race results from the event where a boosted driver won solely on horsepower.

For every person talking about how they don't want to have to cart a laptop to the track, there must have been 200 drivers at the IIC running boosted if only the boosted guys bring computers to the race, if event pictures can be trusted.


You want to really save onroad? Get out of this false mentality that racing is fair.

I've been racing far too long [not just RC] to believe the BS that unless everyone is slowed down, victory, or even just a good finish is outside your grasp. For every person spending their way to the front, there's another working harder on their setup and putting laps on their car to LEARN how to get to the front, while spending LESS money SMARTER.

Are electric racers really such prima-donna's that tuning the power plant AND the car is too complicated? Doesn't seem to affect the nitro guys much, nobody there is screaming to mandate locked carb needles.


While I will fight to race Boosted, whenever, wherever I can, for as long as I can, I have, and will continue to suggest newcomers start in Blinky. Touring cars are complicated, and setup will always been a huge portion of The Complete Package, and learning how to gear properly can be difficult enough without throwing in ESC tuning on top of that. There's only so many things you can experiment with effectively in a day.

HOWEVER, RC racers are, by nature, tinkerers. I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone that calls themselves anything higher than a novice racer would want any adjustment TAKEN AWAY.

In fact, I've brought in a new TC racer this season who's been running RCGT fairly well, and have 2 other buddies that are thinking of starting this winter, who I have also suggested start in a blinky class. They all WANT to race boosted when they feel they're ready, after watching a few local Boosted mains.

Blinky started as a way to get a slower class on the books that would let newer guys learn to tune their car. The natural progression everyone should strive to, IMO, is Mod. Blinky 13.5 is not an intermediate class to mod, and absolutely SUCKS as a Super Stock formula. Boosted 17.5 has the corner rip and throttle control required to almost get fully prepared for mod, while being around the same speed as Blinky 13.5.

The perception that "stock" racing is level and fair has never been true, and trying to regulate it into being true is about as effective as trying to get Congress to stop spending money like a teenager with their parent's credit card.

Bottom line is, until you figure out how to get The Complete Package for yourself, no amount of rule changes are going to get you to the top of the results.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WE ARE RACING. By definition it is a contest of speed. When you combine competition and speed, people will always strive to get faster [hence all the "Which ESC/Motor/Battery is best for Blinky" threads]. If you want to race, figure out how to go fast. If you want something easy to drive, get a soapbox racer.
And that my friends is the gospel!!!!

Remember when the only thing we needed to determine who raced with who was qualifiers and the alphabet? In the good old days if you were the 11th fastest car in STOCK you were in the stock B main. Now the 11th fastest guy wants the rules restructured to either force the top ten outta his class, or slow them down so he can beat them. Of course when EVERYONE in the class is slowed down, he still ends up eleventh, what now?

I think we should just give EVERYONE a first place trophy for participating.
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:44 AM   #152
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HarryLeach for ROAR president..........
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:09 AM   #153
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HarryLeach for ROAR president..........
Here Here!................
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:43 AM   #154
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I think HarryLeach is spot on. They is zero racing out there that you don't find the rich and the poor. The rich trying everything they can to win by buying the best (that by the way keeps the industry going) and the not so fortunate that just race to the best that their pocket book will allow. You can probably come up will a million examples in all forms of racing where each side has won.

I think the biggest issue with on road racing in our hobby is you really need to get folks moving to the next class. So often the slowest/lowest class at a race (club race that is) has multiple people that are way to good and way to fast to be in the class they are in. It makes it very tough/intimidating for beginners that walk in off the street and ask what is the beginner class and there is no way to jump in because you will be a speed bump.
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Old 10-16-2011, 01:12 PM   #155
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I think we should just give EVERYONE a first place trophy for participating.
That practice right there is to blame, IMO. I understand kids like prizes, but giving every team and every player a trophy for every Little League game is just entrenching an entitlement attitude in the minds of our country's youth.

Do you know what my proudest moment in racing was? I was 9, ran my first kart race without getting lapped, took a season to get there. My dad was thrilled, I was happy, we talked about it all week, and I don't even have a trophy for it.

My second proudest moment in racing? My first win, age 10, the following season.

Accomplishments stick with you, especially when they are difficult to achieve.

Racing my be described as a team sport, but only the driver and car owner get trophies if you're in the top 5. That means for NASCAR, there are 38 guys that don't get an award [besides payout money, that is].

Again, racing isn't fair. There is one winner, who may not be the best driver with the best car that day, and many losers.

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HarryLeach for ROAR president..........
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Here Here!................
Careful what you wish for. I'm not even discussing ROAR events right now, just racing in general, including non-ROAR events such as Cleveland, IIC, Snowbirds, etc.

I don't qualify for Master's anywhere, but I've been a racing competitor for more than 2 decades, these conflicts on class structure, cost, perception of cheating, spec rules, etc, is NOT confined solely to RC racing.
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I think HarryLeach is spot on. They is zero racing out there that you don't find the rich and the poor. The rich trying everything they can to win by buying the best (that by the way keeps the industry going) and the not so fortunate that just race to the best that their pocket book will allow. You can probably come up will a million examples in all forms of racing where each side has won.

I think the biggest issue with on road racing in our hobby is you really need to get folks moving to the next class. So often the slowest/lowest class at a race (club race that is) has multiple people that are way to good and way to fast to be in the class they are in. It makes it very tough/intimidating for beginners that walk in off the street and ask what is the beginner class and there is no way to jump in because you will be a speed bump.
Getting folks to move up the to the next class is only part of it. I agree the "line of progression" toward mod seems to have stopped, and, IMO, that's a problem.

I want everyone to ask themselves: "What have you done to bring in more racers to your local track, and what have you done to make sure they have fun and keep coming back?"

As I said, I actively try to get guys I know that seem to be interested involved, and I do what I can to coach them on race days. Sometimes all it takes is a familiar face that can point you in the right direction when you start to get frustrated.
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:59 PM   #156
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I think Tamiya did it well. Sensorless 18T motors + Life batteries (mini, stock TC). 12T sensorless for touring (expert). Cogging was never an issue.
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Old 10-16-2011, 08:30 PM   #157
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To the two gentleman that suggested we could use more racers that move to the next class so the beginning drivers have a chance to win a first for themselves

Things in life become complicated usually to confuse or in lame mans terms to desguise something/someone to keep things going as they we're

But real life needs change and growth yet in RC racing some sandbag and just want the wins and no new challenge for themselves. People like comfort and similarity in their activities. But it is ok to venture into new realms/classes and see if they can face new challenges like a higher level driving class. These adventurers need support and fun atmospheres to want to take the chance to not do so good in their new environment/class hence we need an underlining motive to have fun over just "winning"

I raced stock and won or did good in most races but I wanted to put myself up against the best and I didn't look back. I bought my first mod motor off Rick Howhart and it was an double green dot 22 Quad...lol And my first attempt with their being around 50 mod racers was to win the B main. I was stoked I personally never thought I could go back to get my "wins"

We sometimes need to be into just ourselves yes, but when a class or hobby needs more than just our self-serving needs we must face another challenge

We all deserve a chance to win and we all need to acknowledge greater level drivers and we all need to be happy doing what we are doing even if we don't get first every time

Look at all the selfless people that keep this hobby alive through their ego-less efforts and participation even when they are tired or not so positive they still give it their all but selfishness never leads any group to a group win it divides and conquers when we could if we took the time to see how things could better be done to benefit all instead of just one person. I myself know what it's like to think of just myself but the greatest of ourselves thinks bigger and for everyone

Sorry for the emotion but it's a group mind that makes things better for everyone and their are greater things than just winning and if we don't realize this soon we could have even worse turnouts or conditions where there is no racing at all and that bum's me out dudes

Just some insight on the side to view what answers would work for the group and not just the individual

Thank you
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Old 10-16-2011, 08:41 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryLeach View Post
Whether it's Boosted, Blinky, or Mod, The Complete Package is needed to be successful.

The Complete Package includes things you can't buy, like skill, practice time, the knowledge to know how to set your car up, and what changes to your setup are needed for the conditions at hand.

The Complete Package also includes things you can buy, like motors, batteries, tires, chassis, speed controls, servos, bodies, and tuning option parts.

For every person on here talking about how hard ESC's are to program to run boosted, there is at least 1 thread on this same forum dedicated to tuning them.

For every person on here talking about how drivers set their cars up better when they run blinky, I would like to see race results from the event where a boosted driver won solely on horsepower.

For every person talking about how they don't want to have to cart a laptop to the track, there must have been 200 drivers at the IIC running boosted if only the boosted guys bring computers to the race, if event pictures can be trusted.


You want to really save onroad? Get out of this false mentality that racing is fair.

I've been racing far too long [not just RC] to believe the BS that unless everyone is slowed down, victory, or even just a good finish is outside your grasp. For every person spending their way to the front, there's another working harder on their setup and putting laps on their car to LEARN how to get to the front, while spending LESS money SMARTER.

Are electric racers really such prima-donna's that tuning the power plant AND the car is too complicated? Doesn't seem to affect the nitro guys much, nobody there is screaming to mandate locked carb needles.


While I will fight to race Boosted, whenever, wherever I can, for as long as I can, I have, and will continue to suggest newcomers start in Blinky. Touring cars are complicated, and setup will always been a huge portion of The Complete Package, and learning how to gear properly can be difficult enough without throwing in ESC tuning on top of that. There's only so many things you can experiment with effectively in a day.

HOWEVER, RC racers are, by nature, tinkerers. I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone that calls themselves anything higher than a novice racer would want any adjustment TAKEN AWAY.

In fact, I've brought in a new TC racer this season who's been running RCGT fairly well, and have 2 other buddies that are thinking of starting this winter, who I have also suggested start in a blinky class. They all WANT to race boosted when they feel they're ready, after watching a few local Boosted mains.

Blinky started as a way to get a slower class on the books that would let newer guys learn to tune their car. The natural progression everyone should strive to, IMO, is Mod. Blinky 13.5 is not an intermediate class to mod, and absolutely SUCKS as a Super Stock formula. Boosted 17.5 has the corner rip and throttle control required to almost get fully prepared for mod, while being around the same speed as Blinky 13.5.

The perception that "stock" racing is level and fair has never been true, and trying to regulate it into being true is about as effective as trying to get Congress to stop spending money like a teenager with their parent's credit card.

Bottom line is, until you figure out how to get The Complete Package for yourself, no amount of rule changes are going to get you to the top of the results.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WE ARE RACING. By definition it is a contest of speed. When you combine competition and speed, people will always strive to get faster [hence all the "Which ESC/Motor/Battery is best for Blinky" threads]. If you want to race, figure out how to go fast. If you want something easy to drive, get a soapbox racer.
In essence anyone who believes any different than this is delusional. I coud not have said this any better myself. Great post!
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Old 10-16-2011, 08:46 PM   #159
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It sounds like Lenin , but I do see what you mean ...
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:02 PM   #160
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In a way , general sportsmanship is what keeps the hobby going, but there is always that 1% of racers with such a huge ego that they would rather accuse another of cheating than realize that they've been outperformed that day ! We need a mini rc "pinks all out" character to take care of that one percentile !!!!
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:26 PM   #161
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To the two gentleman that suggested we could use more racers that move to the next class so the beginning drivers have a chance to win a first for themselves
[snip]
I think you misunderstand me a little bit.

There was a time in the not-so-distant past when guys raced and continuously eyed that next faster class, trying to master setup, collect necessary equipment, and moving up for that next challenge.

Forcing guys to move up doesn't work, there's even more backlash than there is right now trying to force everything to go blinky. Something needs to be done to make guys WANT to move up. Prestige maybe?

As I said before, it's not about making it easier for guys to win. Racing is hard. Everyone that truly loves racing, I truly believe, love it because it's hard, and that makes running well, and even winning, more rewarding.
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In essence anyone who believes any different than this is delusional. I coud not have said this any better myself. Great post!
Thank you, that means a lot.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:40 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by HarryLeach View Post
I think you misunderstand me a little bit.

There was a time in the not-so-distant past when guys raced and continuously eyed that next faster class, trying to master setup, collect necessary equipment, and moving up for that next challenge.

Forcing guys to move up doesn't work, there's even more backlash than there is right now trying to force everything to go blinky. Something needs to be done to make guys WANT to move up. Prestige maybe?

As I said before, it's not about making it easier for guys to win. Racing is hard. Everyone that truly loves racing, I truly believe, love it because it's hard, and that makes running well, and even winning, more rewarding.

Thank you, that means a lot.
Me suggesting that people consider more than themselves didn't imply anyone being forced to do anything. Indeed that is my point exactly having racers consider more than themselves hence having an interest in other racers having their chance at a win vs. competing against racers that never leave their comfort of winning in the same class forever...lol

I also never in my post suggested it making it easier for racers to win, but the opposite in taking the challenge to face a new challenge in their own free will for the betterment of other racers hence keeping the good spirit of competition alive

You can't be a son forever, eventually you become the father ...lol

Maybe my post was read through too "quickly" as It was meant to validate your post not be in contrast or comparison

I have been in this sport since '85 although not continually I still recognize needed changes or challenges of sorts

In respect

Kel

p.s. In humbly exhibiting an non-competitive point of view perhaps competition would be better and more satisfying and fulfilling.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:52 PM   #163
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Kel,

I think we're both reading each other as being competitive

I meant only to clarify that for guys to move up, they have to WANT to move up.

I got back into electric onroad just as boosted ESCs came to be, and kind of "grew" with the advancements. To me, going blinky is going backwards and stepping down a class, which I have no desire to do.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:59 PM   #164
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Kel,

I think we're both reading each other as being competitive

I meant only to clarify that for guys to move up, they have to WANT to move up.

I got back into electric onroad just as boosted ESCs came to be, and kind of "grew" with the advancements. To me, going blinky is going backwards and stepping down a class, which I have no desire to do.
Let's agree to disagree that we're not competing about competition ...lol

You are correct though in your posts and in the one I'm replying to

I personally want to just race 12th mod and TC mod to avoid all this "extra" competition

I guess I was feeling this argument/debate and wanted to put my two cents in to aid in it's betterment of all but perhaps talking to some it's like speaking to deaf ears so people need a better perspective/strategy to solve this problem amongst certain non-mod classes

Take care HL
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:07 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by HarryLeach View Post
I think you misunderstand me a little bit.

There was a time in the not-so-distant past when guys raced and continuously eyed that next faster class, trying to master setup, collect necessary equipment, and moving up for that next challenge.

Forcing guys to move up doesn't work, there's even more backlash than there is right now trying to force everything to go blinky. Something needs to be done to make guys WANT to move up. Prestige maybe?

As I said before, it's not about making it easier for guys to win. Racing is hard. Everyone that truly loves racing, I truly believe, love it because it's hard, and that makes running well, and even winning, more rewarding.

Thank you, that means a lot.
Correct again. Winning at any competitive activity is a by-product of improving upon ones self through hard work through both mental and physical preparation. Anyone who truly desires to improve himself understands this very basic concept and takes pride in their accomplishments along this journey. They also understand there is no fast track to success. The game is supposed to be hard, it's supposed to be challenging, if it's all too easy to be competitive then what's the point. For years I have wondered why are there so many drivers in my location that don't make the jump to the next level. Case in point, we have a local club race at the Tamiya USA track and there are currently 29 drivers signed up to run Modified yet only about 5 or 6 will run Mod consistently at any time. Now although it's great that there are 23 other guys running it and who knows maybe they will continue to run it but I highly doubt it. And the question that comes to mind is why wouldn't they continue to? What can be done to get them to continue to run it? I've seen guys start to move up and in this case run mod a few times only to get discouraged because of what seems to me them wanting to become competitive immediately and when it doesn't they drop back down to stock. When the boosted speedo rules were changed instead of drivers moving up they dropped down to slower classes and caused several other drivers to quit racing because now the drivers who were running modified type classes and are clearly faster are now running all over the slower class drivers. So why when the rules changed did they step down instead of stepping up? These are veteran drivers I am talking about that stepped down. It's mental and I think that it's something that no one can teach or change, it's up to the driver to understand the benefit in this case of running the fastest motor class. "Without struggle there's no progress."
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