F1 - Can this become the shortcourse class of onroad?
10-13-2011, 10:38 AM
#136
+1
I've always felt the rubber tires even starting with the F103 felt more like touring car tires that someone resized for F1 rather than making a new compound specifically for the lighter pan car format. The best rubber tires I found were the old Tamiya capped rubber where they just gave you a tube of a super soft/sticky rubber that you had to cut and glue on to a foam tire. They worked really well but were a pain to make and looked terrible. Proline started making a molded cap but went with much too hard of a rubber compound so it never worked well. The tires we have now are much too hard and way too heavy for the cars.
I've always felt the rubber tires even starting with the F103 felt more like touring car tires that someone resized for F1 rather than making a new compound specifically for the lighter pan car format. The best rubber tires I found were the old Tamiya capped rubber where they just gave you a tube of a super soft/sticky rubber that you had to cut and glue on to a foam tire. They worked really well but were a pain to make and looked terrible. Proline started making a molded cap but went with much too hard of a rubber compound so it never worked well. The tires we have now are much too hard and way too heavy for the cars.
The capped tires had massive grip, but didn't last long.
10-13-2011, 10:43 AM
#138
That depended a lot on how you made them. If you trued the foams down just small enough to where the tube did not stretch when you mounted it on the foam it would last a pretty good amount of time. If you kept the tires at the stock height they got stretched too thin and would wear out very fast.
10-13-2011, 11:02 AM
#139
F1 still doesn't have the right tires available in rubber.
They are getting close but they have to have something SUPER soft for the rear in order to get the car stuck without having to get the complete setup perfect and keep it that way.
Then once it is stuck you will need a couple different front tires to add just enough steering for different surfaces.
The F103 has the combos in foam to do just that and the rubber that was available for the 103, the type A, is long gone.
The F104 is terrible without the perfect tires.
The kit tires are both medium compound and the car is undriveable but with their option soft rears the car is almost mangeable but still not a racecar.
Pushes into corners and then loose out of corners.
Pit Shimzu is really close with their latest combos for the F104 and with some careful tuning they have some guys ALMOST up to speed but I'm not one of them, yet, cuz I haven't had to put down the F103 on foams completely, yet. That is happening very soon though and that is F ing sad!
They are getting close but they have to have something SUPER soft for the rear in order to get the car stuck without having to get the complete setup perfect and keep it that way.
Then once it is stuck you will need a couple different front tires to add just enough steering for different surfaces.
The F103 has the combos in foam to do just that and the rubber that was available for the 103, the type A, is long gone.
The F104 is terrible without the perfect tires.
The kit tires are both medium compound and the car is undriveable but with their option soft rears the car is almost mangeable but still not a racecar.
Pushes into corners and then loose out of corners.
Pit Shimzu is really close with their latest combos for the F104 and with some careful tuning they have some guys ALMOST up to speed but I'm not one of them, yet, cuz I haven't had to put down the F103 on foams completely, yet. That is happening very soon though and that is F ing sad!
10-13-2011, 11:20 AM
#140
F1 still doesn't have the right tires available in rubber.
They are getting close but they have to have something SUPER soft for the rear in order to get the car stuck without having to get the complete setup perfect and keep it that way.
Then once it is stuck you will need a couple different front tires to add just enough steering for different surfaces.
The F103 has the combos in foam to do just that and the rubber that was available for the 103, the type A, is long gone.
The F104 is terrible without the perfect tires.
The kit tires are both medium compound and the car is undriveable but with their option soft rears the car is almost mangeable but still not a racecar.
Pushes into corners and then loose out of corners.
Pit Shimzu is really close with their latest combos for the F104 and with some careful tuning they have some guys ALMOST up to speed but I'm not one of them, yet, cuz I haven't had to put down the F103 on foams completely, yet. That is happening very soon though and that is F ing sad!
They are getting close but they have to have something SUPER soft for the rear in order to get the car stuck without having to get the complete setup perfect and keep it that way.
Then once it is stuck you will need a couple different front tires to add just enough steering for different surfaces.
The F103 has the combos in foam to do just that and the rubber that was available for the 103, the type A, is long gone.
The F104 is terrible without the perfect tires.
The kit tires are both medium compound and the car is undriveable but with their option soft rears the car is almost mangeable but still not a racecar.
Pushes into corners and then loose out of corners.
Pit Shimzu is really close with their latest combos for the F104 and with some careful tuning they have some guys ALMOST up to speed but I'm not one of them, yet, cuz I haven't had to put down the F103 on foams completely, yet. That is happening very soon though and that is F ing sad!
My best rubber tires are RIDE and HPI as i have mentioned many times. If you want to go faster, try RIDE/HPI. If you wanna go safer (stable), use Pit Shimizu.
10-13-2011, 11:38 AM
#141
You know there is already a USGT and or RCGT type classes being raced around the country that is exactly what you are talking about. In my neck of the woods I know it’s not as great as Ohio but it was one of the larger classes this summer and so far in the Midwest All-Star Carpet series is USGT. GT type bodies.....21.5 motors and Blinky ESC's..spec tires. Tamiya and HPI both make the M3 body you are looking for....along with 911's. I know that this is a sedan class and it might be a little too simple for someone with your 12th scale background but it is out there.....maybe look outside your neighborhood to see what others are doing might help as well.
Now if someone would only make a national rule set for others to follow or use as a guideline that would be helpful too......
Now if someone would only make a national rule set for others to follow or use as a guideline that would be helpful too......
I was just hoping Traxxas would give us a RTR USGT package that was decent, and then promote the hell out of it, like they do with all their products. The classes are fine, I was pointing out that TRAXXAS is the ONLY company that promotes, on any real scale, outside the industry. If they could take the USGT concept to FULL SCALE race fans the way they did with Slash, we might have something...............
The only problem with USGT and VTA is a newbie can't just walk into a hobbystore and walk out with a package.
Last edited by CypressMidWest; 10-13-2011 at 11:48 AM.
10-13-2011, 12:06 PM
#142
Locally we tried to use box stock HPI F10's, but made a few mistakes.
- We were using silvercan only motors, and the stock gearing was overheating the motors.
- We were limited to rubber tires. The stock kit tires do not work on ozite carpet.
Actually the HPI F10 is a durable car, but it does have some problems.
- Stock motor plate is plastic. Will warp if the motor gets too hot. Aluminum upgrade is too expensive.
- Stock servo saver has too much slop. Super glue the servo saver solves this problem.
Since the HPI F10 uses standard hexes, you could use any touring car tire on them. We tried using the HPI Vintage tires (26mm front/31mm rear), which worked okay on carpet. The nice thing about the VTA tires was you had narrow fronts and wide rears.
You could also use Tamiya F201 tires with the HPI F10. The Type A tires actually worked pretty well on the F10 with firm inserts.
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I think if all the current F1 manufactures would design their cars to use standard hex wheel adapters on the front/rear, then it would help the class grow. You could run foam tires on carpet and keep the car low for high grip. You could then run larger diameter rubber tires outside for extra ground clearance and grip on low bit surfaces.
- We were using silvercan only motors, and the stock gearing was overheating the motors.
- We were limited to rubber tires. The stock kit tires do not work on ozite carpet.
Actually the HPI F10 is a durable car, but it does have some problems.
- Stock motor plate is plastic. Will warp if the motor gets too hot. Aluminum upgrade is too expensive.
- Stock servo saver has too much slop. Super glue the servo saver solves this problem.
Since the HPI F10 uses standard hexes, you could use any touring car tire on them. We tried using the HPI Vintage tires (26mm front/31mm rear), which worked okay on carpet. The nice thing about the VTA tires was you had narrow fronts and wide rears.
You could also use Tamiya F201 tires with the HPI F10. The Type A tires actually worked pretty well on the F10 with firm inserts.
----------
I think if all the current F1 manufactures would design their cars to use standard hex wheel adapters on the front/rear, then it would help the class grow. You could run foam tires on carpet and keep the car low for high grip. You could then run larger diameter rubber tires outside for extra ground clearance and grip on low bit surfaces.
10-13-2011, 01:00 PM
#143
When F1 was big in the past we had Ride, Tamiya, and Pit Shimizu making tires...yet all of them still feel and act more like a TC tire made smaller for F1 cars and really don't have the kind of grip I would like in a pan car like a F1. They worked...but only just.
10-13-2011, 01:44 PM
#144
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Ahhh, the grumpy musings of the USVTA/USGT faithful. I know the class exists. How could anyone not know about it the way you guys pimp it all over the forum...
The only problem with USGT and VTA is a newbie can't just walk into a hobbystore and walk out with a package.
The only problem with USGT and VTA is a newbie can't just walk into a hobbystore and walk out with a package.
If said newbie is educated then they can surely walk into a LHS or go to a website and buy all they need to get a USGT or VTA car up and running. It’s not going to be in RTR form but it can still be purchased and put together. Much like how the majority of SCT racers out there now are not buying Slash trucks to race...they buy Losi, AE, Kyosho what ever but its not a Traxxas that’s being raced. If you’re a racer you’re going to get what you can race with. Traxxas selling the crap out of Slash trucks isn’t bringing in racers....Traxxas is selling trucks that people can have fun with. I would bet that not even 10% of the Slash trucks sold ever see a race a track more then 2 times. Just like Im sure that HPI is selling way more Sprint or E10 RTR's then it will ever sell of its Hotbodies line of cars. I think people are blurring the line that The Slash is a cure and it needs to happen to onroad. When really its just the idea of SCT that has excited people not just the traxxas truck....maybe the same can hold true of USGT or any of the other like classes its the idea that needs to take off. Because really nothing new is needed...no new cars...no new parts...just a new idea with twist on racing and making it look real again.
10-13-2011, 01:44 PM
#145
Suspended
Ahhh, the grumpy musings of the USVTA/USGT faithful. I know the class exists. How could anyone not know about it the way you guys pimp it all over the forum... While looking outside my neighborhood, I have witnessed, and appreciated USGT races. The cars look great and aren't ridiculously slow. Problem is there's still no Slash style RTR, and the USGT races I've watched weren't held at an ALMS event.
I was just hoping Traxxas would give us a RTR USGT package that was decent, and then promote the hell out of it, like they do with all their products. The classes are fine, I was pointing out that TRAXXAS is the ONLY company that promotes, on any real scale, outside the industry. If they could take the USGT concept to FULL SCALE race fans the way they did with Slash, we might have something...............
The only problem with USGT and VTA is a newbie can't just walk into a hobbystore and walk out with a package.
I was just hoping Traxxas would give us a RTR USGT package that was decent, and then promote the hell out of it, like they do with all their products. The classes are fine, I was pointing out that TRAXXAS is the ONLY company that promotes, on any real scale, outside the industry. If they could take the USGT concept to FULL SCALE race fans the way they did with Slash, we might have something...............
The only problem with USGT and VTA is a newbie can't just walk into a hobbystore and walk out with a package.
Traxxass only promotes themselves to sell product to the unknowing masses. Their slash wasn't groundbreaking, they saw thundertech's product at the ihobby show and took their old centipede monstertruck and gave it a body and tire change. Stole the idea. Their rally car was a joke, as a year after its introduction they still don't have replacement bodies available (my son's pissed, but he had to have one). They produce toys, marketed to kids/bashers, and they openly say they're not a racing company and that their aim isn't to produce race car kits. They'd be the last manufacturer I'd want involved in USGT or anything else .................... and I thought this discussion was about F1???
Can we please get it back on-topic?
10-13-2011, 01:51 PM
#146
Suspended
+1
I don't know what the obsession is with rubber tires, especially on lightweight cars like these F1's. As long as rightheight rules are in place, and people don't go nuts (or there are rules against) truing down foam to thin strips as seems to be the practice in 1/12th today, you should be able to get several days out of a proper set of foam tires.
I don't know what the obsession is with rubber tires, especially on lightweight cars like these F1's. As long as rightheight rules are in place, and people don't go nuts (or there are rules against) truing down foam to thin strips as seems to be the practice in 1/12th today, you should be able to get several days out of a proper set of foam tires.
10-13-2011, 02:04 PM
#147
Tamiya and HPI attend American LeMans and Indycar events at Long Beach, CA. Full size F1 racing doesn't appeal to main crowd in U.S. There isn't an American driver in F1. Fanbase for F1 is much larger in Europe and Asia.
10-13-2011, 02:13 PM
#148
+1
I don't know what the obsession is with rubber tires, especially on lightweight cars like these F1's. As long as rightheight rules are in place, and people don't go nuts (or there are rules against) truing down foam to thin strips as seems to be the practice in 1/12th today, you should be able to get several days out of a proper set of foam tires.
I don't know what the obsession is with rubber tires, especially on lightweight cars like these F1's. As long as rightheight rules are in place, and people don't go nuts (or there are rules against) truing down foam to thin strips as seems to be the practice in 1/12th today, you should be able to get several days out of a proper set of foam tires.
If we get enough people and enough interest to run an open class as well then we will. But its no fun to split up a small grid to have 2 even smaller grids.
10-13-2011, 02:20 PM
#149
Suspended
10-13-2011, 03:59 PM
#150
Thank you Kaycerc