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Old 10-11-2011, 08:17 PM   #76
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I think he is referring to purpose built pan cars for 200mm/235mm converted to F1 like Corally and the old HPI Super. They use 1/10 pan car wheels and tires that are wider and the biggest advantage over "traditional" F1 like the Tamiya A/3Racing A Arm type of setup. It's not the suspension that is the advantage, rather the wider tires, esp the back becuase of the massive traction compared to the narrower higher profile F1 tire.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:31 PM   #77
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Probably and probably also referring to cars like the Corally which uses standard pan car arms but outside of the body and they look ugly and not to scale. Either way we need to be somewhat specific to prevent things like that from cropping up.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:57 PM   #78
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I hate to tell ya but...your F109 IS a pan car with a pan car front suspension. It is just made to look like a F1 style suspension.
Then the F104 and F103 have pan car suspensions too. F109 uses the F103 front end. And one of mine uses the F104 front end.

F1 will take off or it wont. Just depends on us, if we want it to succeed we have that power. Sitting and waiting for someone to make the first move doesnt help. 2 months ago my track didnt have a single F1. In fact I was told that #1, no one was interested, and #2 they wont work on our carpet track. Within 2 weeks of me buying and F109, we had 2 more F1s, a week later, another. Now there are 6. They look good, they are different, and they are fun. Some people dig em, some dont. Same with TC, 1/12, and offroad. You want to run F1, then run it. IF not, run something else. Theres plenty for everyone. Theres plenty of arguments both ways, so what. Parts are available pretty easily through internet, several bodies are available be it Tamiya or some of the Japanese Mnf's. Old bodies or new bodies, rubber tires or foams. Figure out what works for where you run, and start something.

the cars are fun.

Heres a couple of us that got together tonight for some runs.
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F1 - Can this become the shortcourse class of onroad?-imag0406.jpg  
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:19 PM   #79
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So,

Who wants to help build 50 VTA RTR or BND kits? ...
But I think you could make this exact same argument before shortcourse became popular. And lets be honest, before the traxxas slash, had you told me that I was going to buy what is essentially a hodgepodge of rustler and stampede parts to go racing, I would have laughed at you. Traxxas had the imagination and put in the effort and started something completely new, just like they did w/ the Tmaxx, and Associated did w/ the RC10 before that.

I think that if there is any company that has the ability to put an RTR VTA on the market, it's HPI. 90% of the parts are already there sitting in house, all they need to do is get a novak deal for motor and speedo. As is, Tower has the Sprint for $240, and I'd say that if they drop the crappy battery and charger they give you and replace it w/ VTA electronics, a cheap lipo and charger puts you right around $325, give or take a bit. All it takes is a bit of effort for HPI to put it together.

And for the record, I don't buy the "you wont be as competitive with the sprint" argument. I've watched tc3's beat xrays in VTA. Does the tuneability of the xray help? No doubt. But no matter what chassis you buy, you will still spend money on hop-ups/tuning options, and I'm convinced it's ALL in the chassis set up and driving line.

As for the original point of the thread of F1 being the slash class, I think another thing holding it back that helps VTA is the soccer argument brought up earlier. F1 is predominantly European, while what VTA is based on happened here, on our race tracks, with our heros, and our cars. It's a similar concept with the slash class. CORR/TORQ are something people here can relate to. But overseas, you have World Rally Championship. If WRC (or F1) was as huge in America as it is in Europe, it very easily could have been the slash class, or the concept of what became the "slash class" could even have been an onroad class...
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:50 PM   #80
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But I think you could make this exact same argument before shortcourse became popular. And lets be honest, before the traxxas slash, had you told me that I was going to buy what is essentially a hodgepodge of rustler and stampede parts to go racing, I would have laughed at you. Traxxas had the imagination and put in the effort and started something completely new, just like they did w/ the Tmaxx, and Associated did w/ the RC10 before that.

I think that if there is any company that has the ability to put an RTR VTA on the market, it's HPI. 90% of the parts are already there sitting in house, all they need to do is get a novak deal for motor and speedo. As is, Tower has the Sprint for $240, and I'd say that if they drop the crappy battery and charger they give you and replace it w/ VTA electronics, a cheap lipo and charger puts you right around $325, give or take a bit. All it takes is a bit of effort for HPI to put it together.

And for the record, I don't buy the "you wont be as competitive with the sprint" argument. I've watched tc3's beat xrays in VTA. Does the tuneability of the xray help? No doubt. But no matter what chassis you buy, you will still spend money on hop-ups/tuning options, and I'm convinced it's ALL in the chassis set up and driving line.

As for the original point of the thread of F1 being the slash class, I think another thing holding it back that helps VTA is the soccer argument brought up earlier. F1 is predominantly European, while what VTA is based on happened here, on our race tracks, with our heros, and our cars. It's a similar concept with the slash class. CORR/TORQ are something people here can relate to. But overseas, you have World Rally Championship. If WRC (or F1) was as huge in America as it is in Europe, it very easily could have been the slash class, or the concept of what became the "slash class" could even have been an onroad class...
How popular is full scale Touring Car racing in the states ?

That entire segment began with BTCC & German Touring Series.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:29 PM   #81
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How bout mix VTA and RCGT since one is popular on the East Coast and one is more popular on the West Coast.
Both require realistic bodies, spoked wheels, treaded tires, any TC chassis and a spec motor..

Kill the treaded tire BS, agree on the motor limit and you have race cars that resemble stuff we recognize.

As far as F1 goes, can be pretty simple cuz only a couple types of tires actually work and the UF1 has set the bar as to which class limits work concerning the 180mm Modern Realistic cars. If you include the open class for the 103/200mm and allow foam or rubber you can run all the true F1 type chassis.
Note: Next season the UF1 Series has eliminated the F103 chassis as an F1 car but instead has changed it to run as LeMans bodied cars on rubber tires.

Wishful thinking would be to have the 2 F1 classes both running 200mm (wide) so that all chassis are equal width and both chassis types (inline and sidelay batteries) would actually handle well.
Just the opposite would be terrible IMHO, 180mm would make both chassis types equally ill handling although there are those that will be running the F103 as a 180mm car next series.

If you really want a super fun class to wake up the racers and fans, try the UF1 rules.
2 minute qualifiers with 5 car per heat limits in order to establish fastest single lap setting the grid.
The 2 minutes allows only enough time to run about 8 laps, similar to true F1 qualifying, give or take.
Then triple A and B mains which are scored per final results i.e. time and laps regardless of which mains you qualified for. Racers in B mains may have better results than others in A mains.

If you haven't already seen the Ultimate F1 website, here's the link:

http://uf1series.com/index.html
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:00 AM   #82
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Until (as its been said here already) F1 has an RTR off the shelf race ready version it will never be a "slash of on road".

The key is an FGX style car. It needs to look like a real F1, come as 5 or 6 different versions, that are all the same price, that the only difference is the body shell, and get some licencing from real world teams. It needs to come with a 2.4Ghz radio, nimh (something big enough to do 2 races with no charging) battery and a charger. In the box. Silver can and esc, or a 21.5 brushless system. The real suspension is important, it might not grip as well on a prep'd surface, but it will work on a parking lot track.

It's got to be HPI or Tamiya that do it, but if they are listening this part is important: DO NOT MAKE A PRO VERSION!! Just make the normal one good, and make spares, not hop ups. Because the second you do that you have the age old problem of the fast guy having the pro so therefore you must have the pro to win. Or X, Y, Z hop ups.

It doesn't matter so much what the price is. $300-$500 will work, but obviously the cheaper the better. The important thing is it needs to look cool, and have a choice of supporting you favorite f1 team, and most importantly everything you need to go racing needs to be in the box.

On the non F1 front two big guys are close to the right formula. HPI with the sprint have GT and VTA right there, just put a legal motor in it!

For TC, LRP make the S10 blast. But not a legal motor for anything. Otherwise its a decent shaft car with a TC body oil shocks alloy shaft and has a 2.4 radio and a battery and charger in the box. Just make it a 21.5 spec system (do a deal with hobbywing for some re branded SP gear, that says LRP how hard could that be?) And you have a low maintenance race ready rtr to get started in TC.


One of the local clubs has the right idea though. 540 for them is a bit of a run what you bring class. If its got a hot motor in it they just ask that you turn it down on the radio so its not way faster then everything else. It gets around 6-7 entries every race meet, only 2-3 of them would be legal 540's but it doesnt matter. Because they are all mostly new, they spend most of the time crashing into stuff and having fun. I personally spec'd one of my basher TC's to run in 540, and have been lending it to friends that have never raced RC before, and pointing them in the right direction when they love it and want to buy. I've done it twice so far and one has already bought his car the other is about to. You can build a Zero S to run 540 for about $350 with battery, charger and everything!
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:39 AM   #83
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Anyone could go to the hobby shop, buy a Slash, charge it up and have fun.

At the moment, there is no onroad equivalent. There is no one single model or style of models that everyone can walk into a hobby shop, buy it, charge it up and have fun.

Could a Formula One car be the answer? Maybe. They are different and look cool, but not everyone can walk into a hobby shop, buy one, charge it and go have fun.

The Slash appealed to the newbies and established racers. Good luck finding something that can do that in this day and age of onroad racing.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:02 AM   #84
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:05 AM   #85
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I hate to tell ya but...your F109 IS a pan car with a pan car front suspension. It is just made to look like a F1 style suspension.
Or is it that your pan car uses F1 style suspension made to look like pan car suspension?
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:09 AM   #86
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The Slash appealed to the newbies and established racers. Good luck finding something that can do that in this day and age of onroad racing.
If that was the case then the slash-class would still have the same following and popularity now that it did three years ago, but the fact is most tracks have totally dropped the class. Because the slash is a POS.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:15 AM   #87
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If you haven't already seen the Ultimate F1 website, here's the link:

http://uf1series.com/index.html
Very cool. The only issue I see is the exclusion of F102/103 chassis. The rule set appears to be limited to F104 for stock. It will also exclude the new Sakura FGX, due out in a couple weeks, which is 10mm too wide, but uses the same tires as the F104.

So, to capture this interest in F1 nationally, there would need to be a modification to include F102/103 to run the F104 size wheels and rubber or foam tires. My only issue with foam tires in this class is racers truing them for mechanical grip too the point of not looking realistic. You can't do that with rubber. Forcing everyone to run the F104 tires as a control set might be enough to make the F104 competitive and get a lot of F102/103 shelf queens down and racing in the stock class. I agree with keeping the front suspension limited to realistic looking upper and lower control arms. As far as breakage, control arms and front wings. A front wing mounted to a heavy duty servo saver or spring loaded steering rack protector would save both the control arms and the wings (hint hint).

The very first time I ran my F103RM, everyone at the track put their stuff down and came and watched one car turn laps for 10 minutes.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:20 AM   #88
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I don't think F1 is the slash of on road. It might get some excitement, but no where close to the level of the slash.

I personally think the slash of on road is slash. If we can somehow get slash guys to set their slashes up for on road, we might be on to something there.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:20 AM   #89
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Anyone could go to the hobby shop, buy a Slash, charge it up and have fun.

At the moment, there is no onroad equivalent. There is no one single model or style of models that everyone can walk into a hobby shop, buy it, charge it up and have fun.

Could a Formula One car be the answer? Maybe. They are different and look cool, but not everyone can walk into a hobby shop, buy one, charge it and go have fun.

The Slash appealed to the newbies and established racers. Good luck finding something that can do that in this day and age of onroad racing.
And run it anywhere.

Current on-road cars (and F1 in particular) NEED a prepared surface to run on.

Off-road is simply more accessible for the hobby newcomer. You can buy a Tamiya F1, enjoy the build and marvel at the body but you will probably run it once in your street before realising it is completely unsuitable. One run in the street is not an incentive to seek out a racetrack. A Slash will get hours of running in the garden and leave the owner wanting more.

The last hugely successful on-road class started with Tamiya's original TA01 touring cars. They came out of the box with beautiful bodyshells and a buggy-derived chassis that could be run on an unprepared surface. TC has developed itself out of the reach of new racers.

On-road needs to go back to basics if it is going to attract new drivers (and by new I mean never raced before). F1's are great, and they attract new hobbyists, but they are not going to attract new DRIVERS.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:25 AM   #90
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Or is it that your pan car uses F1 style suspension made to look like pan car suspension?
It would be like someone putting an F1 body and wings on a SpeedMerchant/CRC/XRay/TOP/Associated/(sorry if I forgortyour favorite) WGT car slapping in a 21.5 and no timing esc and telling you it meets the motor and speedo requirements is therefore legal for the stock class. The car doesn't look realistic in the slightest, but it will fly!
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