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Old 10-11-2011, 09:03 AM   #46
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funny Im reading this after the post I made on the USVTA thread...

everyone knows I think VTA is the almighty class to save on-road...and its has saved alot of tracks and racers....but it will never rival SCT/Slash until a true RTR is available

HPI and Novak need to come together and produce a legal car for new guys to get into it.....

HPI tried and somehow ended up with a Mamba esc and motor...but still stuck the USVTA logo on the advertisement....

for the VTA class, we use mostly Novak esc's and HPI bodies...and its in the rules for Novak motors and HPI rims/wheels...so its part of the glue for the class....HPI has chassis, and Im sure novak can produce a servo...lets get it done...

hey I will say this...when two tracks, from two different sides of the country(north/south) host USVTA events, and you have around 100 entries each....VTA has got to be on to something

FYI...the USVTA thread is messed up cause VTA IS HOT!!!!!!!!!!
What price range would you think a rtr VTA kit would cost? for a consumer
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:13 AM   #47
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$600.00. Look back one page.
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:26 AM   #48
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Wow that only took a page or two to get the VTA drum to start beating lol.

Sorry VTA doesn't do it for me. Maybe it's my generation but I'm intrigued by F1, Moto GP and the top levels of racing. I was in attendance at the IIC last weekend and this was by far one of the most of interesting classes to watch.

Someone commented that they're not easy to drive, I beg to differ. Granted setting them up for carpet may take a few different pieces but in my area we run on asphalt. They're pretty easy to get around the track.

The cars have the "look" of real and scale appearance. They HPI kit is priced right to get people started along with having the hop ups as they grow and settle into the class. The only part I saw break the entire weekend was a rear diffuser that was donated while being parked on the straight away.

They looked great going around the track and the crowd was on the edge of their seats the entire race.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:14 AM   #49
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An RTR F1 kit done as cheaply as possible is still going to be $400 to $450 without a manufacturer stepping in. I still think a single brand brushless system would be the right way to go.

So, how about a Tekin F1, 21.5 2S class?
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:18 AM   #50
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Just looked through Tower Hobbies RTR section. There are many available RTR options for new racers. The HPI Sprint 2 sport and drift and the E10, Tamiya's XB series based on the TT-01's, Team Associated's TC4, and the Thunder Tiger Sparrowhawk VX. All are brushed motors ranging from 27t to 15t. Prices range from $169 to $300. Any one or even all of them could be viable as a "open the box and race" option. I didn't check to see which were complete with batteries and chargers but at least they include most of what someone would need to start racing. Some are even 2.4ghz. A "new racer" class based on these cars could kick start on road again. Once people get hooked, then they could find a class they want to compete in whether stock or USVTA or whatever. With all the bodies available through all these cars, most people could find a body they liked. A motor could be spec'ed to limit speeds for people to learn to drive and keep competition close.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:27 AM   #51
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Interesting discussion.

Our local track for this carpet season is going to have a non-points/non-award "open class".

It's our hope that it being a non-points/non-award class that experienced guys that want to run RCGT, VTA, or any other class that doesn't routinely have a strong turn-out can still run their cars, but also allow guys that haven't ever raced a chance to throw down a RTR car, or a basher that they've put way too much motor into, and give racing a shot, without spending a fortune exchanging their gear for "legal" stuff.

Going to take a few months before we have any idea if it pans out the way we hope and plan for it to.


F1 is a cool class, but around here, various formulas of TC racing [about 50/50 between the 17.5 Boosted and 17.5 Blinky crowds] and Boosted 13.5 1/12 are currently the most stable carpet classes, and nobody really seems interested in running a pan chassis class on asphalt.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:33 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
An RTR F1 kit done as cheaply as possible is still going to be $400 to $450 without a manufacturer stepping in. I still think a single brand brushless system would be the right way to go.

So, how about a Tekin F1, 21.5 2S class?
How so? A 3Racing F109 kit is only $100. Add a Cirtix brushless combo for $80, and then a cheap radio for $40-50. If the manufacturer was doing this, the costs would be even cheaper because when you adjust margins the electronics are no longer $120-130 of the cost.

Duratrax used to sell their Delphi Indy Car as a RTR, didn't they?
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:01 PM   #53
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How so? A 3Racing F109 kit is only $100. Add a Cirtix brushless combo for $80, and then a cheap radio for $40-50. If the manufacturer was doing this, the costs would be even cheaper because when you adjust margins the electronics are no longer $120-130 of the cost.

Duratrax used to sell their Delphi Indy Car as a RTR, didn't they?
Your taking it slightly wrong. As I stated for "us" to do a race kit. Not the mfg. And roughly 400 to 450 is for everything you need including tools, battery, charger w/balance and potentially a power supply and a radio that isn't a throw away and stuff like shock oil, damping grease and such. The original Slash, the first thing you do is put in your own receiver, there goes $100 right into the kit. Toss the radio and receiver or ebay it and maybe make back the fee to sell it. The Cirtix combo is a good thought. Would cut $50 right off the top. I would still say the minimum an MFG could do for any race ready RTR or BND with no throw away/instant upgrade items is $300 to $350.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:52 PM   #54
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I wish there was a magic bullet we could load up to save on-road, but I just don't think there ever will be.

Now that SC has become so popular, it's decline is inevitable. As Rick Hohwart posted several pages ago, TC started out in much the same way as SC did. Cheap, reliable cars that could be run on various surfaces. Enter the hardcore racer, and the cars became more technical and soon you needed fully prepped tracks. Now that AE, LOSI, HPI etc. all build trucks that will stomp a Slash, and guys like Maifield, Cavalieri, and BK are running, it's bound to lose some of that "grassroots" appeal. Just like TC did when Yokomo, Schumacher, Losi and AE brought out their TA02 killers.

I would love to see F1 become the new standard bearer for entry level on-roading. It would make a great stepping stone to 12th scale. The problem is that a pan car requires a certain level of refinement that I don't think $100 will buy you. The HPI car is AWFUL in it's stock configuration, the f109 needs some help outta the box too. Maybe a Tamiya F104W would work, but as has been stated previously, parts support is less than stellar for those cars.

Then you add in the whole FOAM vs. Rubber, 1s or 2s, and Silver-can or 25.5 or 21.5, debates and we end up with more arguing than racing.

Perhaps some cooperation between MFG's could make something happen, kinda like the old Street Spec formula. If HPI, Tamiya, 3Racing etc. could all settle on a similar, but not identical chassis specification, work out a deal for a brushless motor/esc combo that's class specific, and dare I say, PROMOTE the idea, then MAYBE it would take off. I just don't see this happening though.........
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:27 PM   #55
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At my local track(RC Excitement in MA), we onroaders have a spec class calls Speed Spec. Speedmerchant Speedspec chassis($200) with 200mm body, spec tires and 21.5. There are cheap used chassis and electronics floating around the shop all the time. It's the cheapest way to get into onroad with a race class, and even with the local support and relatively low cost of entry, the turnout on a friday night carpet club race is nowhere near the turnout on a thursday night dirt club race. The numbers ebb and flow and on a good night we have a A and a B main with 5-6 racers each. That being said, there isn't a ton of new blood comming over to the carpet. I'm not sure if it is the cost, the percieved durability, or that we all smell like we haven't showered in a week that causes the low turnout. I'm bringing my F103 and my sons F109 to spark some interest, as it's even cheaper then speed spec if we run silver cans and arguably cooler looking, but i'm not sure what would bring in a larger turnout at the track.

As a sign of the times, our onroad pit space has shrunk by half over the last year or so and they recently had over 200 people at the last J Concepts race. Even oval, which is arguably americas second past time after baseball has died off.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:38 PM   #56
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Scale realism with their 1/1 counterpart is what seems to be the key for a class to become popular. Touring Car was that way but has advanced so much its insane... Short Course will eventually go down that path as well. F1 is an awesome class that my track has just recently started running and its becoming quite popular. Is going to be the "short course" class for onroad? Probably not, but sticking as close to scale realism probably contributes to its success around here.

After the IIC in Vegas I don't think onroad really needs saving... I am sure one day we will see a cheap, durable RTR type vehicle that will spawn a new class that will take off much like the Traxxas Slash did for Short Course, but what that will be, I do not know...
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:48 PM   #57
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I think most of us are in agreement no matter what class could become the "Slash" class of on-road there needs to be a race ready RTR version.

VTA as it stands is not it for me. I find the rules way too restrictive. For a class to work long term it has to be attractive to both new drivers and long time racers. At a club level very few "novice" classes last long as new drivers tend to come in spurts so while you may have enough drivers for a "novice" class for a time once those drivers improve and move on to other classes you probably will not have a new influx of drivers to keep the class going. Then you get stuck without a novice class when you get some new novice drivers and they get frustrated and leave. So what you have to achieve is that precarious balance between a class that is fast enough and open enough for seasoned racers to have fun...but also regulated enough to make things even, easy, and fun for the novice drivers.

One of the big problems F1 has always had is the lack of uniformity between the manufacturers. In the old days it was the pan car wheels/tires vs the Tamiya F1 wheel/tire. Now we've got HPI with their rim/tire (which can be modified to take the Tamiya ones), Tamiya with 2 different rim/tire combos, 2 different car widths, 2 different lengths, and now 3Racing going a completely different direction with their next F1 car. We need more uniformity, more body/wing availability, and a RTR version to really make this take off.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:13 PM   #58
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Wow that only took a page or two to get the VTA drum to start beating lol.

Sorry VTA doesn't do it for me. Maybe it's my generation but I'm intrigued by F1, Moto GP and the top levels of racing. I was in attendance at the IIC last weekend and this was by far one of the most of interesting classes to watch.

Someone commented that they're not easy to drive, I beg to differ. Granted setting them up for carpet may take a few different pieces but in my area we run on asphalt. They're pretty easy to get around the track.

The cars have the "look" of real and scale appearance. They HPI kit is priced right to get people started along with having the hop ups as they grow and settle into the class. The only part I saw break the entire weekend was a rear diffuser that was donated while being parked on the straight away.

They looked great going around the track and the crowd was on the edge of their seats the entire race.
^^^^

Look forward to seeing the F1 scale class grow at iic next year.
Scotty has a winner on his hands here.



Maybe it's just a west coast thing, but in Southern California there are at least 40 F1's racing every weekend somewhere.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:18 PM   #59
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Well if I can get an F1 put together as I am planning it in my head...I'll run F1 at the IIC next year too
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:28 PM   #60
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I think F1 could be a fun class, weather it will pick up intrest in the newbie level really depends on the tracks in the respective area's. people have to see the cars run to want them. We run VTA and 17.5 blinky at Battlefield On-road in GA as the predominet classes. Everyone thinks the VTA's look cool and love the speed of the TC's but then they hear the price tag to get started from fresh and get scared off.. The Tamiya F104 is RTR for around the same price as a slash and I think would be a good option, the problem is that people need to see them running to get interested in them.

Nobody wants to buy a car so they can race by themselfs. Thats been part of the big problem with touring in our area. I know at least 10-15 guys that love to run touring but only 3-4 of us show up to race because everybody else is afraid to buy back into it for fear of never getting to run there $1200 toys. VTA is picking up and coming on strong but for myself and the other guys running we just dont care for the bodys. The speed is the real intrest for the beginers though I think, its managable to drive. Myself and some others have been thinking about running 21.5 or 25.5 touring car to bring speeds down a little more and maybe get some more intrest in it.

That being said I think if a decent group of people bought into F1 and ran it on a regular basis I think some new people would buy into it as long as you kept things simple and cheap like spec slash originaly was. When it gets big enough then split it up to spec F1 for the newbies and a Brushless F1 for the more experianced that already have everything laying around and dont mind droping the extra cash on stuff
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