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Old 10-14-2011, 09:46 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW View Post
This thread is a textbook example of why onroad is dead and F1 can't get off the ground.
It started by asking if F1 could be the onroad Slash equivalent, and is currently in the age old debate of foam vs rubber.
ummm... oops!

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First of all you can't apply the Slash formula to any class in onroad, Any onroad car requires a high degree of precision both in setup and driving, a short course truck is in the air half the time. The attempts to do RTR onraod cars have yielded cars of inferior quality to their kit counterparts.
Agreed

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I love F1, always have, but it isn't for everyone. And quite honestly there are a lot of guys that I would not want to race with if they ran F1. You need to show respect for the other cars around you when your wheels are hanging out in space, and a lot of guys aren't willing to do that.
That is an interesting point. Being relatively new to F1, I am finding that I am more cautious when racing someone else, and one the track in general, simply because the tyres are hanging out there. So far I haven't wrecked it too bad, but I still wince every time I get close to the end of a pipe!

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For onroad in general to make a comeback, there has to be stability, and there needs to be less classes. The reason that off road has been around as long as it has is because fundamentally it hasn't changed. Sure the chassis have evolved, but if you know how to set up a car and are a good driver, you don't necessarily need the newest chassis to compete. You can say the same for onroad to a degree, but I think that chassis obsolescence is much greater in onroad.
TBH, I still think On-road is more healthy than some people realise. Yes, it's not at the peak it was, but we do live in tighter times now, and this is a niche hobby. All classes go in cycles, Off-road was almost on it's knees a few years back.. and in the UK, there is signs of a downturn in 12th. No doubt, in a few years time, the opposites will be true as people look to new challenges.

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Everyone wants to debate the rules for F1 before they have even turned a wheel. My suggestion would be, get the cars on track and see what works and what doesn't.
My 104 was a pile when I first put it on the carpet, I am not a fan of grinding brand new foams to dust, so I was running them full. As I skimmed the tires down to keep them even, the car kept getting better and better.
What you say there is why I detest foam... but thats personal preference!

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I personally think that rubber is the great equalizer, if you put all cars on the same compound with the same insert, then its down to driving and setup.
Absolutely agree. For the TITC and the local series, it's control rubber tires, with limited sets. Same for everyone... simply bolt them on and run. No worrying about if someone is using fresh boots each run, or truing and chucking. IMO, it helps to keep the enjoyment factor.

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You have to drive the car on rubber, as you have grip but not like foam.
Don't disagree... it's a different skill set, but when the car is hooked up on rubbers, huge fun just to chuck it in and nail the gas.

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We ran an F1 class outdoors a couple of summers ago. There were 4 of us that went with Tamiya's, 103 and 104 and 6 or more that were gonna show us how much better the 3 racing 109 was. In the end the top 4 were Tamiya's, half of the 3racing crew dropped out, and the ones who were left had either adopted Tamiya parts on their cars to make them work, or gone over to a Tamiya chassis entirely.
We started that series on rubber, and by the end we were on foams. I had my car working well on the Tamiya rubbers, but it was no match for a car on foams.
Just a few of my thoughts, I'm sure there will be more.
Stay tuned
Interesting on the series points. I'm guessing it was run what ya brung in terms of tires? from racing a few events now, foam [i]is[/is] faster, as are the wider cars. No two ways about it.. IMO, if the rules are open, everyone will tend to that solution. Maybe a two class structure is required.

Personally, I really like the Realistic UF1 rule set. It keeps it simple, with motor's that are easy to drive, and an emphasis on realism. I've been told that the local series is going to go the same way... but I have a sneaking suspicion that some wide cars will make there way in. I'm torn between kicking up a fuss over it , or just letting it slide and sticking to my narrow guns, it's only for fun after all
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:49 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Or slap a 12th scale diff, and tires on it. How big are F1 rims? they aren't too much larger in diameter than 38mm are they?
That might actually work for a 180mm wide car (f104 class)
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:43 PM   #183
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Or slap a 12th scale diff, and tires on it. How big are F1 rims? they aren't too much larger in diameter than 38mm are they?
Uncut 12th foams are really really close. The rim diameter is near perfect front and rear. I'm sure we could get BSR or some other company to make a set that mimics F1 realism with the appropriate side wall for our pans. The only issue then would be to put a more realistic looking front suspension on them. Mine is the old Trinity type front end mounted on a ride height adjustable piece of CF. It isn't pretty, but it works well.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:52 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by rokosam View Post
Those F1-Pancars are awesome, not realistic but the best performance..

I don´t think they should be forbidden in OPEN class. Just run them with F103 tires 200 mm F1s cars as they are or using f103 foams on 1/12 rims if that´s possible. Or just running then with WGT cars!!!!! Or just create a Indy car category for this pro10 F1.
This was the fastest car at our old indoor track. 17.5 2S and it would smoke anything, could turn under everything, would out accelerate and make the TC guys cry. Of course I wasn't driving...

I have a WGT 13.5 Boosted, this car was much faster. I'm currently trying to put a different steering system in it and playing with some addon pieces.
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:02 PM   #185
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WGT are faster by their bodyshells (GT cars closed bodies). If you can use one of these 200 mm bodies (Chevy Corvette or Sophia GT or similar) You´ll notice the difference!!!! . Add some ballast weight to agree with WGT rules if needed and voilà!!!

If you don´t want that super F1, please give it to me!!!!
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:52 PM   #186
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Actually in the old days I ran for the old BSR company and that's exactly what I ordered for my Tamiya F103 - Uncut 1/12th tires. I mounted them myself .There was a company called BME that made conversion kits for the Tamiya cars to run american 1/12th tires and diffs. Sold my last few to a guy in Orlando awhile back. I also had a conversion kit for 1/10th tires and diff. I've still got that one.
Go back to the ROAR rules when they first came out and start from there. If you don't have them or can't find them I've got the rule books.
What you race on carpet does not mean that everyone races on carpet.And prepping an outdoor track is simple. A blower and a few things of grape or orange soda. Or a sprayer with 5#of sugar and spray the track!f You make it sound so difficult to race outdoors. That's all we do here in Sunny Florida 99% of the time.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:01 PM   #187
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And prepping an outdoor track is simple. A blower and a few things of grape or orange soda. Or a sprayer with 5#of sugar and spray the track!f You make it sound so difficult to race outdoors. That's all we do here in Sunny Florida 99% of the time.
Some places do not allow you to spray a traction additive on the surface. Took us quite awhile to finally convince management to finally let us do that
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:05 PM   #188
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You can't get a grape soda or orange soda 2 litre bottle? It does nothing to the asphalt. I'm glad I live in Florida.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:42 PM   #189
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Gidday,

You don't actually need to prep an outdoor track at all (apart from mowing the lawns if the track has a grass infield). Our track does change grip level throughout the year but that just adds another dimension to the racing. It just means that you use slightly different tyres if its dusty - thats all.

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Old 10-14-2011, 03:48 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by rokosam View Post
WGT are faster by their bodyshells (GT cars closed bodies). If you can use one of these 200 mm bodies (Chevy Corvette or Sophia GT or similar) You´ll notice the difference!!!! . Add some ballast weight to agree with WGT rules if needed and voilà!!!

If you don´t want that super F1, please give it to me!!!!
I have the Sophia on my CRC WGT, I like it.

The 1/10th pan F1 is actually a car that is available. http://www.rcindycars.com/spitfire.html (The online store is not working, but I know he has a few) The remaining parts came from IRS. Not a cheap kit to assemble. I'll hold onto it for a while.

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Old 10-14-2011, 03:53 PM   #191
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You can't get a grape soda or orange soda 2 litre bottle? It does nothing to the asphalt. I'm glad I live in Florida.
We find that punch syrup works better...but even with soda the management wouldn't let us spray it on the parking lot. They were afraid it would attract bugs.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:36 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
After watching the F1 class at the IIC race it looks pretty good. With F1 coming to the US it has the same realism that people can relate to and provides a lower cost entry class for onroad racing.

Could F1 do for onroad what shortcourse did for offroad?

Tekin Prez
It looked fun and exciting to me because it was close racing with some awesome displays of driving skills and lead changes. The fact that it was the slowest A-main of the event was not important.


Will F1 become the shortcouse class of on road:
NO. The reason is simple. SC trucks like the slash are RTR fun in a box. The heart of the SC frenzy was an RC back yard basher that was friendly to the pre-pubescent youngster while providing a race-able platform with appeal to all age groups and skill levels. The realism of RC F1 may draw new people in, but F1 is not really an entry level class. The F1 chassis can be a hand full that will potentially leave all but the most stubborn beginner a little frustrated.

What happened at the IIC was an just a taste of the unique experience the UF1 group has been enjoying for the last couple of years. The formula for its success is simple, but hard to duplicate. It started with a group of people who already enjoy RC and had some experience in the hobby. It was led by a person who treats RC as a life style and wants to share his passion for the hobby. New ideas of how to run an RC race were mixed in with the willingness of race directors to do something a little different than the usual 2-3 qualifiers and a single main. Having a half dozen or so tracks to rotate around spice up the season and keep it interesting with a different track every month to keeps it fresh. Lastly, UF1 has offered two classes that cater to the individual taste and gives drivers their fill with as much as 60 minutes of wheel to wheel “every lap counts” racing on race day.

The burst of traffic of this thread shows some potential for RC F1. It may just be for a season, but fun will be had by all who try.
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Old 10-15-2011, 12:19 AM   #193
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That might actually work for a 180mm wide car (f104 class)
If I remember correctly, that's how they did it the first year F1 was run at Cleveland back in the early 90's. Frank's old car was pretty cool, and when run with 12th tires looked pretty scale. It had a narrow chassis with an f103 or HPI super F1 front-end.
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:56 AM   #194
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I think the bickering on the rules is going to kill F1 before it has a chance to get going.
I hear that!

For any start up class to get going you have to have competitors, to get drivers to compete you have to give them options between what they have and what they can get their hands on, and you don't need to worry about rules until you have enough cars to field multiple classes within a division. If it's one guy with one odd car that has an unfair advantage it is one thing, but if you are going to eliminate half of everyone before it gets started you end up nowhere.
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Old 10-16-2011, 12:24 PM   #195
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If F1 is the short course of onroad racing, I hope it only incorporates the best of it and not the worst. Everybody forgets that Short Course was initially a spec class for Traxxas Slash only, stock motor, tires, the whole nine yards. Keep it cheap and the cars identical.

I think that the difficulties of getting a turnout for onroad (at least where I race) boils down to a running psychology especially among younger racers which is that they don't like to lose, and especially don't like to get annihilated. We've all see it before: A new guy gets a new or used carpet or asphalt car and with no experience at all throws down against the local heroes and gets lapped a dozen times as a result of a bad setup and inexperience, and after three weeks of getting their ass handed to them they don't come back. Maybe a handicap system is in order, or Winners Weight penalties or something, I really don't know what the solution is but we need to have our new racers feel GOOD about racing onroad instead of leaving the track feeling like they just got a swift kick in the ass.
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