R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-13-2011, 10:14 PM   #166
Tech Master
 
CR0SS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EL Jebel
Posts: 1,498
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default

The best part about all this debating of rules? How much of a difference will it really make in the results of your local club race?
__________________
You know the guy that beat you at the last race? It was not because of his car, or motor, or battery, it is because he was a better driver. Now go practice so you can beat him.

Visit my Youtube channel for HD R/C videos. http://www.youtube.com/user/DHCross1
CR0SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2011, 10:24 PM   #167
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaycerc View Post
No way, if your suspension is properly set your tires won't cone.
We ran on carpet back when we discovered ozite, and had no traction roll issues. Same setups we ran on asphalt.
First off not everyone sets up their tires so they wear flat but rather elect to setup camber for performance. Even if you do try to set them up to wear flat you will still have a slight bit of coning because there is always 1 more turn to on direction than there is to the other...unless you are setting up your car with different camber left to right. But in that case you will have more tire wear on one side than the other.

The ozite today is not the same as it was when carpet racing first started. Traction is very high these days and cars have advanced quite a bit in generating grip. Also you have minimum ride height rules these days that often don't let you set up your car low enough not to traction roll. Take WGT with it's 4mm minimum ride height rule. The first year I tried running WGT on carpet all I did was traction roll the first day until someone told me to cut down my tires and glue the sidewalls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaycerc View Post
That's ridiculous, from 10 feet away you can't tell.
Most places, the overwhelming majority of tracks, the "slash class" died, because they were piles that handled like POS. Let's leave that silly concept out of the equation, because your idea is no more valid than treaded tires in SC. Nobody cared, and found out proper tires that handled won out over any argument about "scale appearance."
From 10 feet away it is very easy to tell the difference from a F1 tire to a 1/10th pan car tire. Pan car rims in the rear are nearly twice as wide and the rim is tall with a short tire where F1 rims are short with a tall tire. However the difference between a treaded tire vs a slick on a TC is much harder to see because the wheels are under the body and not sticking out like in an F1. By a handling argument alone the F201 should have been vastly more popular that the F10X cars as it's 4wd chassis made it much easier to drive especially on a less than perfect surface. But it was the least popular of any F1 car and died out very quickly.
InspGadgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2011, 10:33 PM   #168
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
First off not everyone sets up their tires so they wear flat but rather elect to setup camber for performance.
That sounds like you're intentionally setting your car to cone your tires, so it's your issue to deal with. And the same improper wear pattern would show with rubber tires as well.
Do people cut their foams down to ribbons? Sure. All I was suggesting was a rule against it. Simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
The ozite today is not the same as it was when carpet racing first started.
I'm in no way buying that rumor. I've run ozite, CRC, whatever you want to call it, for decades.
Carpet has always been quicker, smoother, more consistent.
But realistically, really no more so today than back when carpet racing was new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
Traction is very high these days and cars have advanced quite a bit in generating grip.
No way. Back in the day we ran heavier cars, way heavier batteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
The first year I tried running WGT on carpet all I did was traction roll the first day until someone told me to cut down my tires and glue the sidewalls.
Sounds like a setup malfunction.



Quote:
Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
From 10 feet away it is very easy to tell the difference from a F1 tire to a 1/10th pan car tire.
I said nothing about 1/10th pan car tires, but instead same rim style but using foam instead of rubber. Otherwise you're making the same "scale realism" argument that doesn't hold water the original slash class people did, that didn't work, and you couldn't tell either way from 10 feet away.

Last edited by kaycerc; 10-13-2011 at 11:06 PM.
kaycerc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2011, 10:44 PM   #169
Tech Champion
 
robk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Posts: 7,587
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdeselms View Post
I bought an F104 in the hopes of getting involved with F-1 racing (as a fan of the full scale Formula 1) but I find it to be virtually undriveable, even with the Tamiya soft rear tires and hard fronts. It spins out everywhere on the track and has major oversteer, even with extreme expo on the radio. I had BPShadow do me a really nice Red Bull body for it and it's now nothing more than a shelf queen on my hobby table. I'd sell it, if it wasn't so cool looking there on display...I've given up on pursuing on-road; someone else said it right - the on-road racers themselves are their own worst enemies, when it comes to attracting new blood.
If you ever get the itch to fool around again.....

Take the tbar adjustment screw out, the middle screw of the 3. Then glue a small piece of foam over the hole to keep the ride height the same.

100% difference in how the car works.
__________________
A mutually re-enforcing cascade of failure

"Failior [sic] crowns enterprise." Robert Goddard

I-Lap Scoring Systems http://www.rclapcounter.com/
robk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2011, 10:57 PM   #170
Tech Champion
 
robk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Posts: 7,587
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

#1 I like foam tires. Always have...however I understand the appeal of rubber tires. You guys have to understand that the audience for an F1 seems to be more casual racers who like scale looking F1 cars. For a while i couldn't understand all the people who favored rubber tires, but it probably because they have either never run pan cars or they are just not into buying a truer and all that jazz.

As far as coning the tires, it can be an issue, and yes there are a lot of tracks with a lot of traction and yes Ozite is not Ozite, it's CRC Fasttrack or whatever, and it is different. If you don't want to believe me dont, but I have won multiple TCS regionals on carpet with F104 and F103 and I came in 3rd at the TCS nats this year. That's not bragging, but I'm letting you know I know what I'm saying here. I cut my tires down as far as ride height allows when I run foams, and yes it helps.

As far as the Corally and CRC, they are absolute KILLERS but they are 1/10 WGT cars with a narrow chassis. The AE front end sticking out in the wind is ugly. That can be remedied, but the point is the pan car wheels are about 12mm bigger than an F103 wheel. This is an advantage plain and simple. I got a hold of some discontinued Tamiya Indy car wheels that are around 45mm vs. the 38mm standard wheel. With similar foam they were about .2 a lap quicker than the standard wheel. Why do you think sedan went to 53mm rims from 50mm? Same deal.
__________________
A mutually re-enforcing cascade of failure

"Failior [sic] crowns enterprise." Robert Goddard

I-Lap Scoring Systems http://www.rclapcounter.com/

Last edited by robk; 10-14-2011 at 12:05 AM.
robk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2011, 11:19 PM   #171
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaycerc View Post
That sounds like you're intentionally setting your car to cone your tires, so it's your issue to deal with. And the same improper wear pattern would show with rubber tires as well.
I didn't say I setup my car that way only that some do...but like I said even if you do setup your tires to wear flat on both side (different camber left to right) you will still have one tire that wears faster than the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaycerc View Post
I'm in no way buying that rumor.
That's up to you but we are now running on a new CRC carpet which is different from the previous one in grip levels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaycerc View Post
No way. Back in the day we ran heavier cars, way heavier batteries.
heavier does not necessarily mean more grip.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaycerc View Post
Sounds like a setup malfunction.
Then every carpet racer out there is setting up their car wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaycerc View Post
I said nothing about 1/10th pan car tires, but instead same rim style but using foam instead of rubber. Otherwise you're making the same "scale realism" argument that doesn't hold water the original slash class people did, that didn't work, and you couldn't tell either way from 10 feet away.
Bullfrog's argument was in using 1/10th pan car tires since they are much more readily available than F1 style rubber or foam tires. But even if we are talking about F1 foam tires there is still the issue of people cutting the tires down to the rim which then does ruin the scale appearance of the car. Racers will cut down the tire as much as they can to gain any amount of advantage.
InspGadgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2011, 11:27 PM   #172
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
#1 I like foam tires. Always have...however I understand the appeal of rubber tires. You guys have to understand that the audience for an F1 seems to be more casual racers who like scale looking F1 cars. For a while i couldn't understand all the people who favored rubber tires, but it probably because they have either never run pan cars or they are just not into buying a truer and all that jazz.

As far as coning the tires, it can be an issue, and yes there are a lot of tracks with a lot of traction and yes Ozite is not Ozite, it's CRC Fasttrack or whatever, and it is different. If you don't want to believe me dont, but I have won multiple TCS regionals on carpet with F104 and F103 and I came in 3rd at the TCS nats this year. That's not bragging, but I letting you know I know what I'm saying here. I cut my tires down as far as ride height allows when I run foams, and yes it helps.

As far as the Corally and CRC, they are absolute KILLERS but they are 1/10 WGT cars with a narrow chassis. The AE front end sticking out in the wind is ugly. That can be remedied, but the point is the pan car wheels are about 12mm bigger than an F103 wheel. This is an advantage plain and simple. I got a hold of some discontinued Tamiya Indy car wheels that are around 45mm vs. the 38mm standard wheel. With similar foam they were about .2 a lap quicker than the standard wheel. Why do you think sedan went to 53mm rims from 50mm? Same deal.
With you 100% on this Rob...I was amazed at how much acceleration my 1/12th picked up just by cutting 1mm off my tires at the IIC...some coming from the change in roll out and some gained from the lower rotating mass.

I too prefer foams but I recall back in the F101 and F102 days and on to the F103 how much of a difference there was in the smaller and bigger foams...now most of my racers were scale enthusiasts so they elected not to cut down their tires...but they were also budget racers so they kept running them until they couldn't any longer and when those tires got small they looked way wrong. So in terms of having a great scale class that appeals to a broader range of people I am all for rubber tires...I just feel that the tire companies have largely been lazy and have been re-using TC compounds in a F1 form factor where a car this much lighter really needs a completely different compound to work well.
InspGadgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 12:03 AM   #173
Tech Champion
 
TryHard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 5,284
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
#1 I like foam tires. Always have...however I understand the appeal of rubber tires. You guys have to understand that the audience for an F1 seems to be more casual racers who like scale looking F1 cars. For a while i couldn't understand all the people who favored rubber tires, but it probably because they have either never run pan cars or they are just not into buying a truer and all that jazz.

As far as coning the tires, it can be an issue, and yes there are a lot of tracks with a lot of traction and yes Ozite is not Ozite, it's CRC Fasttrack or whatever, and it is different. If you don't want to believe me dont, but I have won multiple TCS regionals on carpet with F104 and F103 and I came in 3rd at the TCS nats this year. That's not bragging, but I letting you know I know what I'm saying here. I cut my tires down as far as ride height allows when I run foams, and yes it helps.

As far as the Corally and CRC, they are absolute KILLERS but they are 1/10 WGT cars with a narrow chassis. The AE front end sticking out in the wind is ugly. That can be remedied, but the point is the pan car wheels are about 12mm bigger than an F103 wheel. This is an advantage plain and simple. I got a hold of some discontinued Tamiya Indy car wheels that are around 45mm vs. the 38mm standard wheel. With similar foam they were about .2 a lap quicker than the standard wheel. Why do you think sedan went to 53mm rims from 50mm? Same deal.
Tbh, what you say there Rob describes me perfectly.... I'm a hardcore TC racer, it's been my main class for ages, and still most of my prep time goes into making sure the TC is running at it's best.
For me, F1 is the fun class, where I throw the car on the track and rag it round for a while, with a big grin on my face as it looks cool... nothing more than that.

I 100% cannot be doing with the hassle of foam. I had to run foam at a race recently and hated it, I just couldn't get the car to work, and got properly fed up. Everyone else was truing tyres, checking additive application the works, and it was sucking the fun out of it for me completely, as I had enough of that sorting out a mod TC...It got to the point of throwing a set of rubbers on the car for the finals and promptly having the smile back.

F1 is about fun for me, nothing more... that I seem to be able to wheel it well locally now I've sorted out some settings is a bonus!
__________________
| THard.co.uk | Xray | MuchMore |
TryHard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 05:50 AM   #174
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 309
Thumbs up

I only know one thing. F1 rubbers 180 mm are REALLY VERY FUN!!!!!!!

I have had touring cars 190 mm (TRF), pan cars 235/200 mm(Corallys) and f1 180 rubbers, and this last is the funniest!!!!

The others are really competition machines but who cares?:
__________________
T.O.P Photon EX-RCDevil PC10H3X-Xray X1
rokosam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 08:30 AM   #175
Tech Elite
 
BP SHADOW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: In the LAB paintin' bodies!!!!
Posts: 2,287
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

This thread is a textbook example of why onroad is dead and F1 can't get off the ground.
It started by asking if F1 could be the onroad Slash equivalent, and is currently in the age old debate of foam vs rubber.
First of all you can't apply the Slash formula to any class in onroad, Any onroad car requires a high degree of precision both in setup and driving, a short course truck is in the air half the time. The attempts to do RTR onraod cars have yielded cars of inferior quality to their kit counterparts.
I love F1, always have, but it isn't for everyone. And quite honestly there are a lot of guys that I would not want to race with if they ran F1. You need to show respect for the other cars around you when your wheels are hanging out in space, and a lot of guys aren't willing to do that.
For onroad in general to make a comeback, there has to be stability, and there needs to be less classes. The reason that off road has been around as long as it has is because fundamentally it hasn't changed. Sure the chassis have evolved, but if you know how to set up a car and are a good driver, you don't necessarily need the newest chassis to compete. You can say the same for onroad to a degree, but I think that chassis obsolescence is much greater in onroad.
Everyone wants to debate the rules for F1 before they have even turned a wheel. My suggestion would be, get the cars on track and see what works and what doesn't.
My 104 was a pile when I first put it on the carpet, I am not a fan of grinding brand new foams to dust, so I was running them full. As I skimmed the tires down to keep them even, the car kept getting better and better.
I personally think that rubber is the great equalizer, if you put all cars on the same compound with the same insert, then its down to driving and setup.
You have to drive the car on rubber, as you have grip but not like foam.
We ran an F1 class outdoors a couple of summers ago. There were 4 of us that went with Tamiya's, 103 and 104 and 6 or more that were gonna show us how much better the 3 racing 109 was. In the end the top 4 were Tamiya's, half of the 3racing crew dropped out, and the ones who were left had either adopted Tamiya parts on their cars to make them work, or gone over to a Tamiya chassis entirely.
We started that series on rubber, and by the end we were on foams. I had my car working well on the Tamiya rubbers, but it was no match for a car on foams.
Just a few of my thoughts, I'm sure there will be more.
Stay tuned
__________________
I'll hit the brakes he'll go right by
http://f1rclab.com
http://f1rclab.mybigcommerce.com
BP SHADOW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 08:38 AM   #176
Tech Master
 
superspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,148
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default attn Traxxas

Dear Traxxas,

I think inboard suspension design is great, please make a 1/10 F1 car with same suspension design and become a sponsor on the next US F1 team. Make the F1 fun to drive and fun to race like the stock slash, then we will have a chance making F1 as shortcourse for on-road. RWD or AWD is fine with me either way: take the front diff, drive shafts, center shaft out for RWD, put them back in for AWD.

Superspeed.
superspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 08:40 AM   #177
Tech Master
 
superspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,148
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BP SHADOW View Post
This thread is a textbook example of why onroad is dead and F1 can't get off the ground.
It started by asking if F1 could be the onroad Slash equivalent, and is currently in the age old debate of foam vs rubber.
First of all you can't apply the Slash formula to any class in onroad, Any onroad car requires a high degree of precision both in setup and driving, a short course truck is in the air half the time. The attempts to do RTR onraod cars have yielded cars of inferior quality to their kit counterparts.
I love F1, always have, but it isn't for everyone. And quite honestly there are a lot of guys that I would not want to race with if they ran F1. You need to show respect for the other cars around you when your wheels are hanging out in space, and a lot of guys aren't willing to do that.
For onroad in general to make a comeback, there has to be stability, and there needs to be less classes. The reason that off road has been around as long as it has is because fundamentally it hasn't changed. Sure the chassis have evolved, but if you know how to set up a car and are a good driver, you don't necessarily need the newest chassis to compete. You can say the same for onroad to a degree, but I think that chassis obsolescence is much greater in onroad.
Everyone wants to debate the rules for F1 before they have even turned a wheel. My suggestion would be, get the cars on track and see what works and what doesn't.
My 104 was a pile when I first put it on the carpet, I am not a fan of grinding brand new foams to dust, so I was running them full. As I skimmed the tires down to keep them even, the car kept getting better and better.
I personally think that rubber is the great equalizer, if you put all cars on the same compound with the same insert, then its down to driving and setup.
You have to drive the car on rubber, as you have grip but not like foam.
We ran an F1 class outdoors a couple of summers ago. There were 4 of us that went with Tamiya's, 103 and 104 and 6 or more that were gonna show us how much better the 3 racing 109 was. In the end the top 4 were Tamiya's, half of the 3racing crew dropped out, and the ones who were left had either adopted Tamiya parts on their cars to make them work, or gone over to a Tamiya chassis entirely.
We started that series on rubber, and by the end we were on foams. I had my car working well on the Tamiya rubbers, but it was no match for a car on foams.
Just a few of my thoughts, I'm sure there will be more.
Stay tuned
+1
superspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 09:14 AM   #178
Tech Elite
 
CypressMidWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 4,618
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post

The only solution for gems like this would be to put the HPI rear axle set on it to run their rims and F104 or F103 tires.
Or slap a 12th scale diff, and tires on it. How big are F1 rims? they aren't too much larger in diameter than 38mm are they?
__________________
Team CRC, PowerPush, Access Race Place, US Indoor Champs, CD SUPERPRO, RK Designs, TxDSkingraphix, Cypress, Founder and lead instructor of the Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driver Training Program, enroll now.....
CypressMidWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 09:32 AM   #179
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
Cars like this:



The only solution for gems like this would be to put the HPI rear axle set on it to run their rims and F104 or F103 tires.
Those F1-Pancars are awesome, not realistic but the best performance..

I donīt think they should be forbidden in OPEN class. Just run them with F103 tires 200 mm F1s cars as they are or using f103 foams on 1/12 rims if thatīs possible. Or just running then with WGT cars!!!!! Or just create a Indy car category for this pro10 F1.
__________________
T.O.P Photon EX-RCDevil PC10H3X-Xray X1

Last edited by rokosam; 10-14-2011 at 09:43 AM.
rokosam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2011, 09:39 AM   #180
Tech Elite
 
j.d.roost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,087
Trader Rating: 28 (100%+)
Default

I have been racing f1 for two years.
A big problem is no two people can agree
on rules for this class.
The local indoor track I race was/is stacked with A+ drivers.

Put a 103 and 104 (built in kit form) with the same caliber driver and the 103 will run all over the 104.

A 21.5 is NOT the same speed as a silvercan.(this is a fact not speculation).

Cars with "pan car" tires are going to be faster than anything Tamiya or Hpi
has mounted up.

Car's with "pan car" fronts were faster than the 103s back in the 90s/early 2000s when f1 had it's 1st go around..so what makes one think it would not
happen again?

Hate to say it, but I feel the only way to really help the class grow is by locking the cars on a similar style tire and locking the wb.at similar dimensions (just like every other class is now).The 103s,109s cross ect. are just worlds different on the track compared to the 104.We as racers usually find a way to make an "imposable to drive" car very stable within a few weeks of track torture.

That being said..I could not stand my 104 on rubber tires. My 103 makes me (and other drivers at my track that try it) grin every time I pull the throttle. It's by far the funnest car I own.I do have the parts on order to convert my 103 to narrow wb. Just hope I can get it to drive to my liking.


Our local f1 class has pretty much fizzled out mainly because of a lack of agreement on rules.
Most of us are racing TCS mini now.
__________________
F1
Roche usa
R.I.P. Jon Williams

Last edited by j.d.roost; 10-14-2011 at 09:51 AM.
j.d.roost is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 12:26 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net