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Old 09-16-2011, 11:17 AM   #1
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Default 12th scale front end wars...lol Double wishbone vs. Old school and reactive castor

Here is a place to talk about the differences and/or advantages between the Double wishbone vs. Old school and reactive castor front ends hence front end dynamics...lol

This thread was created to respect the individual car manufacturers threads as suggested by RBF

This "separate topic"...lol...started here

Enjoy

Double wishbone: by Yokomo R12



by BMI Copperhead 12



Reactive castor: by Associated RC125.1



Old School: by Speed Merchant


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Old 09-16-2011, 01:34 PM   #2
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This is a very complicated comparison as all of the front suspension systems work extremely well. The old school front end works very well and is still used by some today. It is very simple and doesnt have any roll center change as you see in strut front ends when the susension compresses.

The strut front ends in my opinion is a better front end than the old school as it is more adjustable and more accurate. It is not really a great deal of performance gain but i do feel it was a little better. With the strut, as the suspension compresses, it bites harder and harder as the roll center changes as it compresses. Long upper arms reduce the roll center change and make the car feel more stable and mellow. This is the trend that most lean towards. This is a very rock solid platform and has been used for years so about everyone has killer setups for it.

The double wishbone is the most uncommon but most adjustable. We use an uneven double wishbone design as it allows for camber gain. You have the ability to really fine tune more so than any of the other front suspensions. Tire wear is much less with this style of suspension. It is more expensive to produce as it just isnt as simple as the rest of the suspension systems on the market. This is why so many have pretty much given up on the idea. Big race results are not as common with this suspension as they are not nearly as common. Yokomo has done well with it, We have done extremely well but we just do not invest in the big races. Unfortunately this is only a small part of my business and its hard to run a R/C and Non R/C company and travel all over racing. I do my best but chose to spend money on the product and not worry too much about bragging rights. All in all, most guys shy away from this suspension as it is just not as common and not as easy to ask for a bullet proof setup.

All 3 can win at any level so i wouldnt really stick my nose up at anything out there. All the current 1/12th cars kick ass and seem to be high quality. I am just partial to the BMI Car.

Hope my opinion helps buddy
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Old 09-16-2011, 04:03 PM   #3
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And don't forget about the Corally 'beam' design that was very succesfull both here in the UK and in Europe a few years back (just to throw that into the 'front end mix'!).
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protc3 View Post
This is a very complicated comparison as all of the front suspension systems work extremely well. The old school front end works very well and is still used by some today. It is very simple and doesnt have any roll center change as you see in strut front ends when the susension compresses.

The strut front ends in my opinion is a better front end than the old school as it is more adjustable and more accurate. It is not really a great deal of performance gain but i do feel it was a little better. With the strut, as the suspension compresses, it bites harder and harder as the roll center changes as it compresses. Long upper arms reduce the roll center change and make the car feel more stable and mellow. This is the trend that most lean towards. This is a very rock solid platform and has been used for years so about everyone has killer setups for it.

The double wishbone is the most uncommon but most adjustable. We use an uneven double wishbone design as it allows for camber gain. You have the ability to really fine tune more so than any of the other front suspensions. Tire wear is much less with this style of suspension. It is more expensive to produce as it just isnt as simple as the rest of the suspension systems on the market. This is why so many have pretty much given up on the idea. Big race results are not as common with this suspension as they are not nearly as common. Yokomo has done well with it, We have done extremely well but we just do not invest in the big races. Unfortunately this is only a small part of my business and its hard to run a R/C and Non R/C company and travel all over racing. I do my best but chose to spend money on the product and not worry too much about bragging rights. All in all, most guys shy away from this suspension as it is just not as common and not as easy to ask for a bullet proof setup.

All 3 can win at any level so i wouldnt really stick my nose up at anything out there. All the current 1/12th cars kick ass and seem to be high quality. I am just partial to the BMI Car.

Hope my opinion helps buddy
Thank you for your honest yet still neutral perspective on ft end dynamics

I am all about better ft tire wear and even tire placement while under power or off power or while through fast or slow cornering so I putting my money on your and Yok's ft ends

Great job

I have a feeling it makes the whole car smoother

P.s. Sometimes we have to take chances with new advancements but most are afraid to extend themselves into the unknown or are constantly reliant on the setup/configurations of those around them so I applaud your unique and awesome looking ft end. I hope I get to see it in action soon

Sorry I couldn't provide any racing results and feedback...lol

Just my two cents worth via my enthusiasm of the greatest class 12th scale

Peace

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And don't forget about the Corally 'beam' design that was very succesfull both here in the UK and in Europe a few years back (just to throw that into the 'front end mix'!).
How could I leave that out...lol One of the coolest looking ft ends in the business

Got pic's?
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:50 PM   #5
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I still race my Corally SP12. I can't find a reason to update since it still does the job very well with the metal A-arms. O rings forever!
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:22 PM   #6
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I still race my Corally SP12. I can't find a reason to update since it still does the job very well with the metal A-arms. O rings forever!
Pic's would be greatly appreciated for visualization purposes only
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Old 09-17-2011, 07:19 AM   #7
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Here you go mate:



That is my old SP12G with the Coral front beam.



That is my own car with the wishbone front end.

This was the front end on the SP12X when it came out. Most people ditched this in favour of an AE front end. It turns out that most people would set the front end up incorrectly, and then not get on with it. People (including me!) would set the camber angle (using the downstops) and then wind down the spring. That was incorrect. It turns out that you should back off the downstops, put the wheels/tyres on and wind down the spring retainers until you get the correct camber angle, and then wind down the downstops until they almost touched the chassis. After doing this (I was taught by a long term Corally factory driver), the front end worked much better, although I have an AE front end all set and ready to go 'just in case' (!).
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Old 09-17-2011, 07:41 AM   #8
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Oh WOW!! The SP12G. I loved that car. That was the car to have back in the day.
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:32 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman2 View Post
Here you go mate:

That is my old SP12G with the Coral front beam.

That is my own car with the wishbone front end.

This was the front end on the SP12X when it came out. Most people ditched this in favour of an AE front end. It turns out that most people would set the front end up incorrectly, and then not get on with it. People (including me!) would set the camber angle (using the downstops) and then wind down the spring. That was incorrect. It turns out that you should back off the downstops, put the wheels/tyres on and wind down the spring retainers until you get the correct camber angle, and then wind down the downstops until they almost touched the chassis. After doing this (I was taught by a long term Corally factory driver), the front end worked much better, although I have an AE front end all set and ready to go 'just in case' (!).
Thanks for taking the time to show me your stuff
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:29 AM   #10
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Default New Pic's

I added some pics of the three ft end types generally speaking

Please if you have better pics for "Old school" let me know I'll post it ...lol
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Old 09-17-2011, 01:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Thanks for taking the time to show me your stuff
No prob mate.

I have always been a fan of Corally right back since the PK/Corally stick pack car came out (late eighties!).

I have quite a few actually and they stuck with the beam front end from the 12G model, right through to the 12M model.

The M model had a few differant tweaks until the 12X came out.

Check out this site for further (high quality) pics:

http://corally12.nl/

All the differant models are on there, with their respective front ends!

Cheers.
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Old 09-17-2011, 01:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protc3 View Post
Oh WOW!! The SP12G. I loved that car. That was the car to have back in the day.
Totally agree with you mate, I had the coral chassis car before that, and many more after including the G2, G3, V, etc, etc.
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Old 09-17-2011, 01:40 PM   #13
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Now give the old school some respect. It still works and is still used on some surfaces. Plus it's trouble free and simple.
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:14 PM   #14
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Now give the old school some respect. It still works and is still used on some surfaces. Plus it's trouble free and simple.
My Volkswagen bus still works but cannot out handle my datsun 510...lol

I think it's good to support old things and people who love old school but I used the reactive castor AE ft end many times and never had any problems and to that the double wishbone just gives more options for role center including settings for dive/anti-dive which like the BMI guy said has really had very little interest hence very little testing and usage in racing

Just a couple little tuning adjustments that obviously allow for greater steering possibility in tuning environments

I mean all the 12th cars out there have the same innovative crc rear pod side spring deal and most have the reactive castor so why is it so strange or hard to understand just to add to what is mostly the same for all cars with a moving lower ft arm which I thinks gives longer better tire wear

Just saying
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:47 PM   #15
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2007 Nats. Josh Cyrul’s track, the Old School Front Suspension won all three R.O.A.R. 12th Scale National Titles at the tightest, twistiest & most difficult Nats track in years. The whole track was one big corner, and it didn’t even have a full straight. Corner speed and efficiency was everything.

Race report: http://www.teamspeedmerchant.com/200...arpetNats.html

Video…( Thanks Nash), shows how tight the track was.
http://www.rc50.com/modules.php?name...p=getit&lid=34
Dumas taking the win over Blackstock and Cyrul.

"better picture of an Old School”.
http://www.teamspeedmerchant.com/MikeDumasVegas02.html

As the weight of round cells increased each season, reactive camber, became more important in the corner speed equation.

Things have changed… Running LiPos which weigh a ton less, and with the advent of (in some cases) in-line battery configurations, we have less chassis pitch and roll than we have had in probably 10 years. Hence…the Old School front end will not only work…but work very well.

Proof??? Speedmerchant driver Watanabe from RC Champ House in Japan qualified 4th and finished 5th in the A-Main at the Snowbird Nats this year testing an Old School suspension in 17.5 class. Watanabe races 17.5 carpet once a year….at the Snowbirds. He was one 10th of a second off fast lap of the race.

I really like the looks of many of the new front-end designs, and in some rare cases they do work better than the the "Old School" front-end. In 9 out of 10 cases though, that old design is still plenty competitive.

Like I've said, to each their own. I'm still not giving up my Pro-Strut. I just think that the Old School front-end is too good to be written off........
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