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Old 09-17-2011, 10:57 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
2007 Nats. Josh Cyrul’s track, the Old School Front Suspension won all three R.O.A.R. 12th Scale National Titles at the tightest, twistiest & most difficult Nats track in years. The whole track was one big corner, and it didn’t even have a full straight. Corner speed and efficiency was everything.

Race report: http://www.teamspeedmerchant.com/200...arpetNats.html

Video…( Thanks Nash), shows how tight the track was.
http://www.rc50.com/modules.php?name...p=getit&lid=34
Dumas taking the win over Blackstock and Cyrul.

"better picture of an Old School”.
http://www.teamspeedmerchant.com/MikeDumasVegas02.html

As the weight of round cells increased each season, reactive camber, became more important in the corner speed equation.

Things have changed… Running LiPos which weigh a ton less, and with the advent of (in some cases) in-line battery configurations, we have less chassis pitch and roll than we have had in probably 10 years. Hence…the Old School front end will not only work…but work very well.

Proof??? Speedmerchant driver Watanabe from RC Champ House in Japan qualified 4th and finished 5th in the A-Main at the Snowbird Nats this year testing an Old School suspension in 17.5 class. Watanabe races 17.5 carpet once a year….at the Snowbirds. He was one 10th of a second off fast lap of the race.

I really like the looks of many of the new front-end designs, and in some rare cases they do work better than the the "Old School" front-end. In 9 out of 10 cases though, that old design is still plenty competitive.

Like I've said, to each their own. I'm still not giving up my Pro-Strut. I just think that the Old School front-end is too good to be written off........
Thanks for your extensive answer I just was curious the difference and/or advantages/disadvantages of all three ft ends

We now have an answer and proof not just enthusiasm to use what is "old school" cause it's cool to use simpler stuff which it is

And I noticed the SM blue braces nice

Thanks again

p.s. The race report link is down for me

Which exact video is it? You said it was 2007 but I only see 2006
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:02 PM   #17
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click this link http://rc50.com/modules.php?name=Dow...titleA&show=10

it's the 3rd from the bottom
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:06 PM   #18
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click this link http://rc50.com/modules.php?name=Dow...titleA&show=10

it's the 3rd from the bottom
Thanks Jason. My "intarweb" skills seem to be impaired after racing at the Gate all day today.
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:06 PM   #19
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click this link http://rc50.com/modules.php?name=Dow...titleA&show=10

it's the 3rd from the bottom
Thanks
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:08 PM   #20
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Thanks Jason. My "intarweb" skills seem to be impaired after racing at the Gate all day today.
Do they still use that body today? Mike D's body?

Thanks
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:15 AM   #21
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Found this on the Speedmerchant website.

"......Here at SpeedMerchant, we do a lot of testing, and I can tell you on our car the old style front end works better about 90% of the time. Here's what we've found over the past few seasons.
  • The new stlye front end is better on bumpy tracks. Hopefully yours' isn't like that, but in our travels we've been on some pretty scary surfaces. In these cases, we put the new style front ends on the cars.
  • The "old skool" (yes, I realize that's not how school is spelled) front end gives our car more steering entering a corner than the new style front end.
  • In the center and exit of the turn it has slightly less steering than the new style front end.
  • This tends to compliment our chassis' handeling characterisitcs. Because of having all the weight in the centerline of the chassis, the Rev.3 doesn't transfer as much weight as most 12th scale cars do when entering a sharp corner, this can lead to "push" or "understeer". Like I said earlier the old style front end remedies this situtaion.
  • The "old skool" front end has much less "slop" than the new style. Whenever you have "play" in a suspension, either from wear or poor assembly you are just asking for inconsistency.
  • The "old skool" front end weighs about 1/2 of what a new one weighs. This lowers your cars total weight as well as lowering its' center of gravity.
  • The "old skool" front end can take a good hit and not go out of tweak. The new style front end is notorious for "moving" after a hard hit and then throwing the whole car out of tweak. Tons-o-times over the past few years drivers have brought me cars to look at with the complaint "It's out of tweak." After going through the car, guess where the problem is usually found. The front end. Either the delrin pivot balls are bound up, a spring is collapsed, or just too much play in the parts, etc, etc, etc.
......"

http://www.teamspeedmerchant.com/cars/rev3/rev3.html
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:32 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by YR4Dude View Post
Found this on the Speedmerchant website.

"......Here at SpeedMerchant, we do a lot of testing, and I can tell you on our car the old style front end works better about 90% of the time. Here's what we've found over the past few seasons.
  • The new stlye front end is better on bumpy tracks. Hopefully yours' isn't like that, but in our travels we've been on some pretty scary surfaces. In these cases, we put the new style front ends on the cars.
  • The "old skool" (yes, I realize that's not how school is spelled) front end gives our car more steering entering a corner than the new style front end.
  • In the center and exit of the turn it has slightly less steering than the new style front end.
  • This tends to compliment our chassis' handeling characterisitcs. Because of having all the weight in the centerline of the chassis, the Rev.3 doesn't transfer as much weight as most 12th scale cars do when entering a sharp corner, this can lead to "push" or "understeer". Like I said earlier the old style front end remedies this situtaion.
  • The "old skool" front end has much less "slop" than the new style. Whenever you have "play" in a suspension, either from wear or poor assembly you are just asking for inconsistency.
  • The "old skool" front end weighs about 1/2 of what a new one weighs. This lowers your cars total weight as well as lowering its' center of gravity.
  • The "old skool" front end can take a good hit and not go out of tweak. The new style front end is notorious for "moving" after a hard hit and then throwing the whole car out of tweak. Tons-o-times over the past few years drivers have brought me cars to look at with the complaint "It's out of tweak." After going through the car, guess where the problem is usually found. The front end. Either the delrin pivot balls are bound up, a spring is collapsed, or just too much play in the parts, etc, etc, etc.
......"

http://www.teamspeedmerchant.com/cars/rev3/rev3.html
Thanks I'm glad most here saw my genuine and polite interest for a friendly debate on this subject

Great members, great site

Thanks for the awesome info YR4Dude

Edit:

With a new found awareness that a great respect and interest of the "Old school side of the force" indeed exists I have appropriately changed the first post Pictures

Perhaps Michael O'Donnell of Norcal Hobbies would be interested in testing this "Old school" ft end on his very nice, top 12th scale car since according to this quote below it's suppose to work better 90% of the time

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Originally Posted by YR4Dude View Post
"[I]......Here at SpeedMerchant, we do a lot of testing, and I can tell you on our car the old style front end works better about 90% of the time. Here's what we've found over the past few seasons
Maybe he will comment since he has Many years working with Many kinds of ft ends

Curious why did Top designed by J.C. put the reactive castor when according to speed merchant 90% of the time "Old school" ft end works better

This friendly debate/discussion is very interesting indeed ...lol

Last edited by Infinite 12th; 09-20-2011 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:50 AM   #23
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Regardless of how well it works, "old skool" is old and it doesn't "look" good to sell product (ie. new kits).
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:58 AM   #24
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Regardless of how well it works, "old skool" is old and it doesn't "look" good to sell product (ie. new kits).
See now that is an honest answer and I like that (People who are real are hard to find sometimes)

I mean it's one thing to be polite but to tell it like it is no matter what others think is priceless and genuine

So generally speaking we're dealing with marketing not facts and Speed Merchant and Tamiya are going against the grain as it seems and have the guts to do what they believe actually works better

Gotta to respect that

Thanks
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:42 PM   #25
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A few observations:

The statement from the SM website is pretty dated (notice the reference to the Rev3) and as such is only referring to the difference between the old skool front end and the AE 12L4 front end that almost everyone used at the time. The old skool front end works great, I ran it on my SpeedMerchant and Quad 12 cars for a long time. As good as the 12L4 front end is when built right, there are (arguably) better reactive caster front ends out now. SM's current "Formula 3" front end is super adjustable and can be set up with reactive caster.

It's not all facts or marketing. Personal preference has an effect on what will work best for you. I'm pretty partial to the T.O.P. Rebel reactive caster front end, it is so smooth and adjustable (convenient, no?). I'm glad there are a lot of choices available, that makes 1/12th scale fun.

The old skool front end won't bolt up to the Rebel 12, it's 3 bolt lower arms have a completely different screw pattern. I see no reason to cut a special chassis to find out what I already know. I mean, it would be fun, but there are too many other things on the "to do" list
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:25 PM   #26
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A few observations:

The statement from the SM website is pretty dated (notice the reference to the Rev3) and as such is only referring to the difference between the old skool front end and the AE 12L4 front end that almost everyone used at the time. The old skool front end works great, I ran it on my SpeedMerchant and Quad 12 cars for a long time. As good as the 12L4 front end is when built right, there are (arguably) better reactive caster front ends out now. SM's current "Formula 3" front end is super adjustable and can be set up with reactive caster.

It's not all facts or marketing. Personal preference has an effect on what will work best for you. I'm pretty partial to the T.O.P. Rebel reactive caster front end, it is so smooth and adjustable (convenient, no?). I'm glad there are a lot of choices available, that makes 1/12th scale fun.

The old skool front end won't bolt up to the Rebel 12, it's 3 bolt lower arms have a completely different screw pattern. I see no reason to cut a special chassis to find out what I already know. I mean, it would be fun, but there are too many other things on the "to do" list
Thanks for your post in my thread

While also observing, it is important for me to have tough car as well! I like a newer style ft end but at the cost of it braking easily or tweaking I would settle for what's durable. I remember the cliff let reactive castor ft end being pretty durable at least with my driving...lol

I looked pretty closely at your ft end on Sunday and saw a lot of slick adjustability as well as a neat look to it Rather than the usual inserts or spacers, etc it seemed to use simple washers to determine ride height, track width. Clever designing indeed!

Funny all 12th cars are very similar kinda which is good for sharing setups in general but with so many it's got to be hard to make a choice especially for beginners. Theirs like 10 12th scale cars out now or more maybe I dunno

Is this the SM ft end you we're talking about MO?



Man that car looks nice

And with "Old School"

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Old 09-21-2011, 03:33 PM   #27
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Not so fond of the new Speed Merchant (ala Trinity) front end. It may be super adjustable but to dial in those adjustments I would need to get a 1/12th setup station. Already got one for 1/8 and 1/10, don't want to have to pickup and lug around another just for 1/12.

What is nice about the old school is that all you have to do is install the proper spring, shim accordingly for ride height and caster, check tweak (the old way of lifting fron the center of the rear pod with a knife to see if both wheels lift at the same time) and your done.

Right now I'm swaying towards the reactive caster cause its not extremely old but not new either which is what my budget can afford for now.
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:48 PM   #28
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Here's another front end for you:



This is from the Team Laje SpeedEvil car that I used to race a few seasons back.

The original Trinity front end was good, but adjusting castor would also affect camber, so it was tiresome to get it all sorted.

With the Laje front end, there is an extra turnbuckle which makes adjusting both castor and camber much more easier to do!

They do have an updated front end out now, and I do believe that a new car is going to be offered soon.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:37 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by YR4Dude View Post
Not so fond of the new Speed Merchant (ala Trinity) front end. It may be super adjustable but to dial in those adjustments I would need to get a 1/12th setup station. Already got one for 1/8 and 1/10, don't want to have to pickup and lug around another just for 1/12.

...
You don't need a setup station to adjust the SM front end. I do it with an RPM camber guage. It does take more time than a non-adjustable front end but but you can get the exact settings that you want. You also do not have to worry about the settings being different side to side because of improperly molded plastic parts. The AE reactive caster front end was famous for that.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:38 PM   #30
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Here's another front end for you:



This is from the Team Laje SpeedEvil car that I used to race a few seasons back.

The original Trinity front end was good, but adjusting castor would also affect camber, so it was tiresome to get it all sorted.

With the Laje front end, there is an extra turnbuckle which makes adjusting both castor and camber much more easier to do!

They do have an updated front end out now, and I do believe that a new car is going to be offered soon.
I believe that would be considered within the realm of reactive castor
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