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Old 09-02-2011, 08:05 PM   #1
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Default 190mm TC bodies

Anyone notice that the selection for 190mm TC bodies have dwindled? When has Protoform or even HPI last produced a new body in 190mm? For HPI, I would say a long long time ago because just about anything new they offer is either for Mini or 200mm. For Protoform it was last year with the P37 which was just a carry over from its 200mm version originally designed for nitro TC.

So where does that leave us? Just Tamiya. Nothing against Tamiya, I love their scale looks and detail but their bodies are pricey. Also their bodies aren't aerodynmically tuned for RC cars like Protoform.

I've looked around and there are other bodies available online from overseas suppliers but ever noticed how ridiculous the shipping costs are once you try to ship a body from overseas?

The thing that I don't understand is that there is so much movement in the market for new chassis like XRay, Tamiya, Top, 3Racing, Serpent,and etc. As well as tires and wheels like Sorex, Sweep and Solaris for the 190mm TC market. Yet for some reason manufacturers don't think there is enough market to produce more new bodies for these 190mm cars?

I think the latest body for 190mm is from McAllister Racing. Good ol' Gary McAllister thinks there is still enough market in 190mm to be worth his while so why doesn't the other manufacturers like HPI or Protoform think the same?
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:15 AM   #2
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Would be great to have more selection for Global Spec bodies. A few probable reasons why we don't see very many new bodies for 190mm TC, World GT, 1/12th etc;

If it is not broke don't fix it. Protoform has market dominance in TC, World GT & 1/12th bodies is because they work very well and meet the needs of racers.

It is not cheap to develop a new body. It's a gamble if it will be successful and if it isn't, than the company takes a big loss from developing, manufacturing and advertising it.

For example, Protoforms R9 & Mulsanne bodies. They were flops and Protoform probably didn't come close to breaking even on them. Their other bodies perform extremely well and when they have made a good profit from them, they may develop new bodies.

If you are looking for something different you might want to check out these;
http://www.eastcoastbt.com:8081/en/home.php
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:02 AM   #3
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eastcoast bodies are quite good handling wise, i like their euro r body outdoor.

great price on them too, but they are very fragile, crack easy fast so you are better off with a protoform as it will last alot longer
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:11 AM   #4
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I have three go to bodies for 190mm. mazda speed 6, LTR and the 37 is something I am playing with also. Speed 6 is probably fav for random track starting place. It's hard to come up with a good body also. Bodies roll out every 2 years or so. If there was more profit to be had then there might be more. But at this point there are bodies that work and work well. The development cost for a mold and producing bodies is way more than you would think. So price point wise the PFM bodies are at the top AND they work well without giving up much. For proper aero testing and whatnot the bodies would go from 20-25 bucks to 100 with not a whole lot of difference in performance. Nitro has had a bunch of new bodies that make the stratus 3.1 almost pointless lol. But there will be revisions along the way but till then the mfg's try to recoop the expenses of making a new body.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:35 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BrodieMan View Post
Would be great to have more selection for Global Spec bodies. A few probable reasons why we don't see very many new bodies for 190mm TC, World GT, 1/12th etc;

If it is not broke don't fix it. Protoform has market dominance in TC, World GT & 1/12th bodies is because they work very well and meet the needs of racers.

It is not cheap to develop a new body. It's a gamble if it will be successful and if it isn't, than the company takes a big loss from developing, manufacturing and advertising it.

For example, Protoforms R9 & Mulsanne bodies. They were flops and Protoform probably didn't come close to breaking even on them. Their other bodies perform extremely well and when they have made a good profit from them, they may develop new bodies.

If you are looking for something different you might want to check out these;
http://www.eastcoastbt.com:8081/en/home.php
I think the GBS rules have a big part in the lack of new shells. There is not much you can do within them to make a body that is significantly different.

Basically, TC racing is extremely mature now, the rate of development has slowed down, there are very few "big" ideas in the class now, and many of the big ideas that have been released in the last 5 years have failed to have an impact.

When I look back to 2001 when I got back into the hobby and started in touring, the differences between the cars, tyres, bodies etc were very significant. Not any more.
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:31 AM   #6
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It is actually hard to find a Stratus anywhere now, Mazda 6 have ruled for many years, the Stratus was there before, and Alfa 156 before that, there is also the listed official bodies that limits the companies to offer something different, Protoform shoulds have plenty moulds from previous years...but if there is no sales, they won't mould them, shame. a BMW M3 was always welcome in TC
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Old 09-03-2011, 07:10 AM   #7
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What incentive does any big manufacturer have to make new racing bodies?

There's plenty of choice for bashing and drifting because the body aerodynamics aren't important, and people want a wide range of bodyshells, so you have ABC Hobby, Chevron, Deltaplastik, Speedway Pal, Spice, Yokomo, etc as well as Tamiya and HPI who all make a wide range of different shells for the bigger non racing market but none really suitable for high level competition.

If you want some choice of racing touring shells then the small scale racing companies like McAllister and East Coast are going to be the ones to do it, but their market is entirely people who deliberately want to be different to everyone running Protoforms.

For racing the Global Body Spec means there's no incentive to develop different bodies any more. 10-15 years ago they were experimenting with different shells to see what worked and what didn't, bringing out different designs roughly based on real cars and finding out through sales as to what shapes worked best.

Now we have the GBS and ridiculous licensing fees so we have standardised to no name shells that are all roughly the same shape. Protoform dominates the racing class with a selection of bodies that cover just about any track so they have no incentive to make anything else, why pay out to develop a new body when the sales of the new shell will just mean sales being taken from other bodies in their range. The GBS means a small body company can't come in with a new body design that beats anything by Protoform on the track unless they are really lucky, if someone did make a better body and Protoform started losing sales then they would quickly get a new one out.

It's like in 1/10th off road, where everyone is asking why Associated doesn't bring out a new 2wd buggy because everyone else is. The answer is why spend a fortune to replace something that is already dominating the class.

As for HPI, what interest do they have in producing 190mm bodies? The only 190mm car they make is the TCX. The Nitro RS4 and electric Sprint2 are both 200mm wide as standard. HPI still make a good selection of 190mm race spec bodies under the Moore-Speed brand (see here and scroll down) but I presume being developed and made by HPI Europe is why they aren't sold in the US.

Manufacturers constantly bring out new high end chassis because that's how they make the most money, cars aren't consumable and regularly replaced like bodies are so to keep selling cars you have to keep on bringing out new ones. Look closely at them though, for example Tamiya regularly update their TRF cars but almost everything that changes are machined parts, a few tweaks in CAD and the next lot of parts machined out mean a narrower chassis, lower/higher top deck, etc. all parts that have no tooling costs. Yet they are still using plastic moulded suspension parts that go back to the TA04 which have high costs for making a new mould.

With bodies the main cost is in developing and producing the pattern the bodies are taken from, the production costs are relatively small so the more bodies pulled from each pattern the cheaper the bodies are to produce. Unless a manufacturer sees a need for a new body and they expect to sell enough extra shells to cover the development cost, they won't make them.
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Old 09-03-2011, 07:28 AM   #8
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For example, Protoforms R9 & Mulsanne bodies. They were flops and Protoform probably didn't come close to breaking even on them. Their other bodies perform extremely well and when they have made a good profit from them, they may develop new bodies.
The Mulsanne wasn't a flop when it was first produced, it was a big seller 10 years ago when it was the Porsche GT1 as there was nothing better for the RC10L3T. Local club members even stockpiled a few when they discontinued it. With the reintroduction of narrow pan cars with WorldGT it was easy to just dust off the mould and pull a few, unfortunately for the "new" Mulsanne everyone stuck to front motor/rwd GT shells so it has no market today.


World GT is the perfect example for why there aren't new racing bodies. The new class started and out of readily available touring car shells there was a big choice of HPI GT bodies and the Protoform Corvette. Everyone went for the PF Corvette. Protoform decided at the time to develop an Alfa and a Maserati shell for the class, and the first was the Sophia. Parma also brought out the WGT specific DB9 body and there is still a wide choice of GT shells that fit, but everyone runs the Sophia as it's the best aerodynamically.
We never saw the Maserati shell. Why is easy, the class never took off like touring cars or 1/12th so there's a relatively limited market. Now if almost every single racer is using the one body you sell why spend time and money developing a new body when you know you aren't going to sell one single body more than if you stuck with the one body you already have. The only way Protoform would sell more bodies is to make something that looked good but didn't perform as well, so enough people would buy the new body to try for a week or two, and then buy a Sophia to go back to what they already run.
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:38 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
The Mulsanne wasn't a flop when it was first produced, it was a big seller 10 years ago when it was the Porsche GT1 as there was nothing better for the RC10L3T. Local club members even stockpiled a few when they discontinued it. With the reintroduction of narrow pan cars with WorldGT it was easy to just dust off the mould and pull a few, unfortunately for the "new" Mulsanne everyone stuck to front motor/rwd GT shells so it has no market today.
Interesting. Did they alter the Porsche GT1 at all when the reintroduced it as the Mulsanne?

edit: looks like the didn't. Awesome looking body. Apparently didn't handle well for World GT?
http://www.modelsport.co.uk/index.php?product_id=11261
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:03 AM   #10
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....It's like in 1/10th off road, where everyone is asking why Associated doesn't bring out a new 2wd buggy because everyone else is. The answer is why spend a fortune to replace something that is already dominating the class.
That class has also dwindled because of the popularity of Short Course and its ubiquitous choices of scale looking bodies.

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....As for HPI, what interest do they have in producing 190mm bodies? The only 190mm car they make is the TCX. The Nitro RS4 and electric Sprint2 are both 200mm wide as standard. HPI still make a good selection of 190mm race spec bodies under the Moore-Speed brand (see here and scroll down) but I presume being developed and made by HPI Europe is why they aren't sold in the US.
HPI introduced and developed many bodies recently for their Cup Racer which is somewhat of a flop because it hasn't broke through the Mini crowd as they expected. So why are they willing to spend money on licensing bodies for a not so popular chassis as opposed to their very popular 190mm TCX?

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.....Manufacturers constantly bring out new high end chassis because that's how they make the most money, cars aren't consumable and regularly replaced like bodies are so to keep selling cars you have to keep on bringing out new ones.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? Because the bodies are so "consumable" people will buy bodies more often than they would a new chassis whose going rate is currently about $450 - $500. This is what is wrong with this hobby. People are expected to shell out big bucks for a new chassis every year and put a shell on it that looks the same year after year after year. Where's the visual incentive for newcomers to get into this hobby? Its visually boring and internally expensive.

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....With bodies the main cost is in developing and producing the pattern the bodies are taken from, the production costs are relatively small so the more bodies pulled from each pattern the cheaper the bodies are to produce. Unless a manufacturer sees a need for a new body and they expect to sell enough extra shells to cover the development cost, they won't make them.
The bodies cost practically nothing. What really costs aside from tooling is packaging and accessories (ie window masks, decals, molded parts like the HPI wings). However, thats what it takes to be in business. Your justification for the manufacturers lack of motivation to produce new product is like saying auto manufacturers should only bring out new models once every 10 years. If so,then there's no need for auto shows, no need for car magazines and no need for any public interest because its the same old boring thing. And thats exactly what is happening with 190mm electric TC, its slowing down and becoming more stagnant. When was the last time you saw something interesting in an RC mag about 190mm TC?
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BrodieMan View Post
Would be great to have more selection for Global Spec bodies. A few probable reasons why we don't see very many new bodies for 190mm TC, World GT, 1/12th etc;

If it is not broke don't fix it. Protoform has market dominance in TC, World GT & 1/12th bodies is because they work very well and meet the needs of racers.

It is not cheap to develop a new body. It's a gamble if it will be successful and if it isn't, than the company takes a big loss from developing, manufacturing and advertising it.

For example, Protoforms R9 & Mulsanne bodies. They were flops and Protoform probably didn't come close to breaking even on them. Their other bodies perform extremely well and when they have made a good profit from them, they may develop new bodies.

If you are looking for something different you might want to check out these;
http://www.eastcoastbt.com:8081/en/home.php
Those eastcoast bodies are nice ...do u know where i can get one of those bodies?
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:26 AM   #12
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Sure there are a few people that want a new body but when you spend thousands of hours tuning it and once you change the body to a different style, more hours of tuning to fix the changes that the body has done. Once you get into lower turn motors, the aerodynamic effect that a body produces is multiplied. ever adjust your wing 2*? Try it. Notice how much your car changes. Speed, downforce, handling, the whole bit.

The moral of the story is: even if companies offer a different shell, If the current shell is allowed the time invested tuning to that shell is not worth losing if you dont have to.

Look at Tamiya, specific races do not allow certian bodies because of the advantage & they want more variety. Therefore ban X,Y,Z bodies from TCS races. (and use them in World GT for an advantage Thank you TA06 and 2008NSX body)
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:31 PM   #13
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That class has also dwindled because of the popularity of Short Course and its ubiquitous choices of scale looking bodies.
2wd buggy is still the biggest off road class in Europe, short course racers are in the minority. Popularity of the class over others is irrelevant to the point being made, that there's no point in Associated spending money developing a B4 replacement when it is still winning .

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HPI introduced and developed many bodies recently for their Cup Racer which is somewhat of a flop because it hasn't broke through the Mini crowd as they expected. So why are they willing to spend money on licensing bodies for a not so popular chassis as opposed to their very popular 190mm TCX?
Because the TCX is popular at your track doesn't mean it's popular elsewhere and in the world at large. Certainly here in the UK Tamiya TRFs are considerably more popular and the local distributor doesn't even import them. Remember for every single race chassis sold there are at least 50 basher cars and trucks sold, and I know that most large r/c retailers will sell the Cup Racer while very few places stock the TCX. I wouldn't be surprised if the even HPI Switch was more popular than the TCX.

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Shouldn't it be the other way around? Because the bodies are so "consumable" people will buy bodies more often than they would a new chassis whose going rate is currently about $450 - $500. This is what is wrong with this hobby. People are expected to shell out big bucks for a new chassis every year and put a shell on it that looks the same year after year after year.
Bodies are consumable, if you keep racing then you will need to keep buying bodyshells regularly, usually the same bodyshell you bought the time before, and the time before that. You are a regular customer and if they develop a better body you will stop buying the one you currently do and will buy the new one instead. The company makes no more money out of you.

You buy a chassis to race and that's it. If the company doesn't update the car for three years you won't be buying another of the same chassis every few weeks/months/year, you will stick with what you have and the company makes no money from you apart from the occasional sale of spares. The chassis manufacturers rely on customers who think they have to buy the latest chassis to keep up, so they make small tweaks that make little difference to the average club racer and people will buy it. Unless you are amongst the very top levels in rc and heavily sponsored, buying the very newest version of the car you already run isn't going to make you go any faster. Look at the latest lipo versions of current cars, flip the diffs over to move the belts and add a narrower chassis plate. Job done, and plenty of sales generated.
You aren't forced to buy the latest car every year, much like racers aren't forced to buy the very latest touring car body whether it works better or not.

If your complaint is that people are using bodies that look the same year after year, then Protoform and the like aren't going to produce new bodies that are much different from what is currently available, they know what works best on a touring car chassis. New bodies are going to look exactly the same as currently, but with differently shaped grille and headlights. You can do that yourself with paint.

Your complaint is that we are using bodies that look the same as they did years ago, while we are all running chassis that look the same as they did years ago and they are the same as everyone else. Anything that is different such as the Team Magic E4RS is generally ignored just because it is different. The same happens with bodies, just look around your local club and I would be surprised if there is a wide range of the currently available shells being used, usually it's just two or three types at the most. Body manufacturers making a wider range of shells will make no difference to the number of different bodies being used at any club as people will stick to what they know works well.

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Where's the visual incentive for newcomers to get into this hobby? Its visually boring and internally expensive.
Visual incentive? There's plenty. It's provided by scale looking Tamiyas and they are pretty cheap to get into the hobby, a complete car for a fraction of the price of a high end chassis. An incentive to get into the hobby isn't provided by the race chassis. There are many clubs that struggle to attract newcomers that don't realise that everyone running high end cars just puts newcomers off. Tamiya Minis go down well with newcomers as well and Tamiya will most likely sell more minis than everyone else sells race chassis each year. They are good fun to race as well as looking great and being cheap to run.
Sticking a different looking body on a high end tourer isn't suddenly going to attract newcomers to the class, the last thing they are put off by is everyone running the same bodyshell.

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The bodies cost practically nothing. What really costs aside from tooling is packaging and accessories (ie window masks, decals, molded parts like the HPI wings). However, thats what it takes to be in business. Your justification for the manufacturers lack of motivation to produce new product is like saying auto manufacturers should only bring out new models once every 10 years. If so,then there's no need for auto shows, no need for car magazines and no need for any public interest because its the same old boring thing.
There is no comparison with full size cars. Full size cars have healthy competition between manufacturers and while some will replace their old car with the new version (or even a newer model of their current version) most people will look around and see what's available from the other manufacturers. A full size comparison with the body situation would be if 90% of the cars on the road were a mixture of Ford Focus and Ford Fiesta, depending on drivers needs, with the most of the rest being Dodges and Buicks that looked very similar to the Fords but didn't drive as well or were as comfortable as the Fords. Then throw in a handful of Hondas and Nissans that you had to import from Japan and that's it. Unless you are one of the few that deliberately choose something different you will have a Ford and when it needs replacing you will just buy another Ford, just like everyone else. Ford only needs to slap a new grille and lights on every few years to encourage people to buy their car sooner, but they know they aren't going to lose any customers when you have the best product and the whole market sewn up.

Translating the real full size world to model car bodies, Protoform would have competition and have to keep on developing new bodies to keep ahead of everyone else, and tech charts would have 5+ different manufacturers in the list, not just everyone running the same shell. Unfortunately we have the GBS that limits what shape touring car bodies must be, in the full size world that's a bit like saying every car built must now have the same shape and dimensions as the Ford Focus to be allowed on the road. The GBS does guarantee that all touring car bodies will resemble a four door tourer instead of a wedge with a bubble for the roof but it does mean other makes have to compete with the fact that people won't buy them because they aren't Protoform.

Quote:
And thats exactly what is happening with 190mm electric TC, its slowing down and becoming more stagnant. When was the last time you saw something interesting in an RC mag about 190mm TC?
The Tamiya TA06, that's pretty interesting to see what that's like with some development, and whether the drivetrain makes it into a TRF chassis. The Awesomatix. The Hot Bodies TC-FD being used by Hara in touring racing, but then I won't buy something just because it's yet another copy from Tamiya/Associated/Xray/Hot Bodies/Corally/etc based on the TRF415. The development of gear diffs for tourers. Plenty of innovation if you look outside the narrow world of most touring car racers.

You can't blame the stagnation of touring cars as a whole on the fact Protoform isn't tweaking one of their current body shapes each month. It's stagnating because the class has matured and is likely to stay that way for some time. Look at 2wd buggies, they spent 20 years with the standard moulded chassis with rear motor and inline batteries. The advent of lipo and brushless has seen innovation come back while they try to develop a chassis that doesn't have the same weight distribution as before. It's going to need a similar shake up before we see innovation back in touring cars.
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:31 PM   #14
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Interesting. Did they alter the Porsche GT1 at all when the reintroduced it as the Mulsanne?

edit: looks like the didn't. Awesome looking body. Apparently didn't handle well for World GT?
http://www.modelsport.co.uk/index.php?product_id=11261
The first time round the stickers had Porsche style lights and separate letters that made the word Porsche when they were put together. The Mulsanne just had different stickers.

It handled great for the World GT chassis. The problem is the class rules means the body is illegal for World GT as the original car isn't front engined and no one is interested in running an open body class.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:45 PM   #15
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The first time round the stickers had Porsche style lights and separate letters that made the word Porsche when they were put together. The Mulsanne just had different stickers.

It handled great for the World GT chassis. The problem is the class rules means the body is illegal for World GT as the original car isn't front engined and no one is interested in running an open body class.
Thanks for the 411 Terry.sc

We're off the 190mm topic but WGT bodies are still relevant to the discussion. The new Black Art Mercedes coming out this fall so World GT will have another option which is nice. BTW my club has taken a cue from Lou's Speedway in London, Ontario and doing their SCAR/TransAm/World GT CHALLENGE class. Three different 1/10th Pan Car setups with three different body styles. Standard WGT 'race' bodies, TransAm bodies & 4 passenger street legal based cars. Basically anything you want. Very cool.

http://forums.londonrc.com/showthread.php?t=44553

If more body choice & more scale "realism" is what you are after than talk to your club and try to do an RCGT or GT2 class that has GBS bodies not allowed. If there isn't enough 190mm bodies that you like, buy new hexes and/or offset wheels and run one of the many HPI 200mm bodies.
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