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Old 06-02-2011, 12:16 PM   #46
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If you limit the motor and speed control the money being spent on a car is a non issue. RC is the first kind of racing I have been involved in where everyone thinks money=speed. Other forms of racing the guys spending lots of money are kind of a joke because they still cannot perform up to par with their equipment. Now in RC go dump $1000 and suddenly everyone consider you fast Money does not buy skill. The fast guys will still be fast with a budget car or a no budget car. People need to stop looking at what others spend and using that as an excuse for why they lost. This is the way to reduce what others think they need to spend to be competitive.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:22 PM   #47
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If you limit the motor and speed control the money being spent on a car is a non issue. RC is the first kind of racing I have been involved in where everyone thinks money=speed. Other forms of racing the guys spending lots of money are kind of a joke because they still cannot perform up to par with their equipment. Now in RC go dump $1000 and suddenly everyone consider you fast Money does not buy skill. The fast guys will still be fast with a budget car or a no budget car. People need to stop looking at what others spend and using that as an excuse for why they lost. This is the way to reduce what others think they need to spend to be competitive.
+1
Especially true in pan car 2wd
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:37 PM   #48
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The problem is we have about 5 guys at our local indoor track that are pretty fast. Fast enough to get everything out of a car and tire. Now if one of those guys gets a after market chassis and wins then the other 4 guys start thinking I need that chassis too. So now you have 5 guys who are also the fastest guys out there and they all run the after market chassis and along comes a guy looking for something to do. He looks at the cars the fast guys are running and the car that comes out of the box and can clearly see the they look different and the fast guys have the big dollar car so thats the car you need to have to compete through his eyes. Now all he sees is dollar signs and walks away. Thats the problem with spending.

The other issue I see with letting anyone run any 180mm car is if there is a (for example only) "Ned car" that was built and sold for only 2 months three years ago and it is the bomb diggity and smokes all other cars. Now someone shows up with this car at the track and kills everyone with his Ned car. Now everyone who just bought a tamiya car is feeling bad about their purchase and then depression sets in. lol But the guys who want to win will search the world over and locate the other 4 Ned Cars of the world and bring them to Toledo. Now not only do you have to have a Ned car but you can't even get one if you wanted one. Limiting the cars is to protect the racers from themself. Seen it a 1000 times. Look at the On-road gas GT class right now.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:41 PM   #49
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Dasmopar,

I would just follow or mimic the UF1 series classes; and tailor the race format to fit whatever your area likes/runs. The UF1 series seems pretty straight forward and fair to me.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:44 PM   #50
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If you guys in your area think that a very spec limited class will work, don't worry about what people who may never race with you will say. If you have 6 guys who are going to go out and buy cars and race them as a sure thing, just do it. That's a decent sized class. Once other guys see it, it will get bigger. I have a bit of experience with this.

And stick to your guns once you finish the rules. There will be a lot of crying from a small amount of people, but the majority will thank you in the end.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:17 PM   #51
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:20 PM   #52
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I see what you mean by not wanting to use run what you brung, my only thought is of the guy who see's you're racing F1 and he has say a F201 that he bought before they were discontinued. If you make specific rules about chassis he doesnt get the joy of shattering that china doll and being pantsed by a easily available F103 and perhaps upgrading next season. That guy wont come out to race. I prefer that we all race on rubber, but the 103 guys cant get tires as easily as 104 guys so I just let em run foam while I run rubbers and race the guys with the rubbers in the same heat. Keeps heats full and complaints low, for this season at least. Also once you make rules at the start youre going to get the "...now I have to spend $$$ on a brushed esc to run silver can? I have to buy a new 21.5 motor? I cant run my HPI super 10 I have to buy a new car?" And dont worry about the $500 car in F1, outside of tires, laps are the best hop up for these finicky mofo's.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:06 PM   #53
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If you guys in your area think that a very spec limited class will work, don't worry about what people who may never race with you will say. If you have 6 guys who are going to go out and buy cars and race them as a sure thing, just do it. That's a decent sized class. Once other guys see it, it will get bigger. I have a bit of experience with this.

And stick to your guns once you finish the rules. There will be a lot of crying from a small amount of people, but the majority will thank you in the end.
This is the best idea and post I've seen and heard on the subject. Common sence to the fore.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:08 PM   #54
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The other issue I see with letting anyone run any 180mm car is if there is a (for example only) "Ned car" that was built and sold for only 2 months three years ago and it is the bomb diggity and smokes all other cars. Now someone shows up with this car at the track and kills everyone with his Ned car. Now everyone who just bought a tamiya car is feeling bad about their purchase and then depression sets in. lol But the guys who want to win will search the world over and locate the other 4 Ned Cars of the world and bring them to Toledo. Now not only do you have to have a Ned car but you can't even get one if you wanted one. Limiting the cars is to protect the racers from themself. Seen it a 1000 times. Look at the On-road gas GT class right now.
Even here you are falling into the assumption that the chassis is the reason people are being beat. Everyone looks for the easy excuse and easy way to make themselves better. 9 times out of 10 the reason people are being beat is the driver. I am not sure why in RC everyone thinks and continues to think it is all about the car when it is anything but.

As others and I pointed out very early in this thread follow the UF1 rules. The have been tried and tested why make it harder than it has to be. Also remember every rule you have has to be enforced all the time every time or you should not have it.
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Old 06-02-2011, 07:02 PM   #55
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I see what you mean by not wanting to use run what you brung, my only thought is of the guy who see's you're racing F1 and he has say a F201 that he bought before they were discontinued. If you make specific rules about chassis he doesnt get the joy of shattering that china doll and being pantsed by a easily available F103 and perhaps upgrading next season. That guy wont come out to race. I prefer that we all race on rubber, but the 103 guys cant get tires as easily as 104 guys so I just let em run foam while I run rubbers and race the guys with the rubbers in the same heat. Keeps heats full and complaints low, for this season at least. Also once you make rules at the start youre going to get the "...now I have to spend $$$ on a brushed esc to run silver can? I have to buy a new 21.5 motor? I cant run my HPI super 10 I have to buy a new car?" And dont worry about the $500 car in F1, outside of tires, laps are the best hop up for these finicky mofo's.
Pit and ride both make tires for the 103 in the same compounds as the 104 tires
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:23 PM   #56
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DAS continues to think that there are cars that are so superior that if run by anyone they will dominate. This is not and never has been true. Recently a guy built some old Associated Buggy, an RC10 I think and qualified into the A in some big race. A number of years ago in the Toledo club, Joe Tuttle won the club championship with a MRP Pan car against 4wd opposition. It's the Driver that makes the biggest difference.

Yes I know there are cases where a superior car will help. but it won't help me beat Lon (II), Zuke, Bill, etc.

I understand and agree with limitations but logical ones like the ones UF1 rules. "SPEC" classes are about limiting the performance and cost. A "SPEC" class with $250+ cars before you add a $40 body is kinda dumb (IMHO). Especially when there are very good alternatives for closer to $100 available + used stuff. Allowing only Tamiya cars is a curious choice in my mind. From what I can determine there are only a few 180mm wide cars available. The specs on Tower's site lists F104's at 180, 183, and 205mm wide. Also the Wolf and Lotus 79 have "period correct" extra large rear and small front tires as they should. So, correct me if I'm mistaken, but the only legal 180mm cars are the Ferrari F60 and the McLaren Mercedes...

I think a critical part of the UF1 rules is the two class structure which allows old and new chassis to both run, + foam and rubber tires, and a variety of bodies.

I agree that there is and has been a problem with the preception that only the very best and latest will do. The facts are that 99% of the time the best drivers are the only ones that can really fully utilize the high end stuff but you cannot change the perception no matter what you do. Believe me, I've tried!
Not sure what you are getting at with the comment on the Gas GT's. When I asked you about them last year you told me ther were a money pit, could not be made to run even box stock (2spd, Motor, traction etc) and to stay clear of them. Are you saying your surprised that the class is dead or almost dead? A basic electric class of simple design like F1, won't have any reliability issues. Well with the exception of the crashers, the cars aren't really THAT fragile but they aren't as protected or strong as a TC or even a WGT.

I saw a set of rules from down under and they were pretty open as far as width and tires but I really like their point about scrutineering and that the cars must be representative of an actual F1 car or one from a "fantasy" team. (I can't remember the wording, but it meant you could make up your own paint job if it looked like it could have been a real car/team.)

My $3.80 worth.

Ned

Last edited by aarcobra; 06-02-2011 at 09:54 PM. Reason: additional comments
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:37 PM   #57
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DAS continues to think that there are cars that are so superior that if run by anyone they will dominate. This is not and never has been true. Recently a guy built some old Associated Buggy, an RC10 I think and qualified into the A in some big race. A number of years ago in the Toledo club, Joe Tuttle won the club championship with a MRP Pan car against 4wd opposition. It's the Driver that makes the biggest difference.

Yes I know there are cases where a superior car will help. but it won't help me beat Lon (II), Zuke, Bill, etc.

I understand and agree with limitations but logical ones like the ones UF1 rules. "SPEC" classes are about limiting the performance and cost. A "SPEC" class with $250+ cars before you add a $40 body is kinda dumb (IMHO). Especially when there are very good alternatives for closer to $100 available + used stuff. Allowing only Tamiya cars is a curious choice in my mind. From what I can determine there are only a few 180mm wide cars available. The specs on Tower's site lists F104's at 180, 183, and 205mm wide. Also the Wolf and Lotus 79 have "period correct" extra large rear and small front tires as they should. So, correct me if I'm mistaken, but the only legal 180mm cars are the Ferrari F60 and the McLaren Mercedes...

I think a critical part of the UF1 rules is the two class structure which allows old and new chassis to both run, + foam and rubber tires, and a variety of bodies.

don't
The cheaper you go, the more it takes to make them competitive,
The HPI is a good example of that, I have not run one, but the concurrance seems to be that you need to spend a lot to make it competitive.
With that said, it is possible to compete with a sub-$200 chassis. And yes a used F103 when setup right can compete as well.
The beauty of the F104 Pro kit is that for around $230, its done, go out and race. Sure there are other parts that you could buy, but out of the box it is track ready.
If you are going to run both foam and rubber, separate the classes, because rubber will never compete with foam.
Also this is not really a beginner class, these cars can be tricky to setup and require a deft touch to drive on the limit outdoors.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:45 PM   #58
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The cheaper you go, the more it takes to make them competitive,
The HPI is a good example of that, I have not run one, but the concurrance seems to be that you need to spend a lot to make it competitive.
With that said, it is possible to compete with a sub-$200 chassis. And yes a used F103 when setup right can compete as well.
The beauty of the F104 Pro kit is that for around $230, its done, go out and race. Sure there are other parts that you could buy, but out of the box it is track ready.
If you are going to run both foam and rubber, separate the classes, because rubber will never compete with foam.
Also this is not really a beginner class, these cars can be tricky to setup and require a deft touch to drive on the limit outdoors.
I have not run the HPI either and have only run my F109 with the stock foams and 13.5/single cell but it ran well. It is nice to be able to buy something because you know it is competitive out of the box. I'm just against requiring it! I like to be different, and anyone who has followed F1 since Jim Clark and Dan Gurney, like I have, reallizes that the essence of F1 is the unique nature of the cars. It's being "Spec-ized" by Bernie and the rest like all other forms of racing but if ya wanna race IROC go ahead..oh yeah that's been replaced by NASCAR, INDYCAR, etc! LOL

(Actually I'm just jealous! Tried to get F1 going here locally (SC) at least twice in the last 5 years...)

Good Racing!
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:13 PM   #59
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DAS continues to think that there are cars that are so superior that if run by anyone they will dominate. This is not and never has been true. Recently a guy built some old Associated Buggy, an RC10 I think and qualified into the A in some big race. A number of years ago in the Toledo club, Joe Tuttle won the club championship with a MRP Pan car against 4wd opposition. It's the Driver that makes the biggest difference.

Here is the issue I fear. I'm going to name names here so you can see what I'm getting at. In this class I have to beat Vector03cobra, Ted Hammer, ect. Now in Mentor last week Vector and I ran basicaly dead on lap times each round. At Ft. Meyers Jeff was clearly faster than me. Whats changed? I am running a MRX-5 just like Vector now. So with this information we can figure between Jeff and I we are going to run very close if we have the same car. If jeff gets a better car than me he is going to be faster since I can't turn my knob to 11 anymore, 10/10ths is all I have to offer. Now I know Vector VERY well and I know if the rules allow it he will have something other than a tamiya car which in turn forces me and Ted to also buy the same car if it is in fact better than our car.

Yes I know there are cases where a superior car will help. but it won't help me beat Lon (II), Zuke, Bill, etc.

Thats all I'm trying to control is the spending of money for speed in a class thats designed for fun and close racing and not really designed for fast laps.

I understand and agree with limitations but logical ones like the ones UF1 rules. "SPEC" classes are about limiting the performance and cost. A "SPEC" class with $250+ cars before you add a $40 body is kinda dumb (IMHO). Especially when there are very good alternatives for closer to $100 available + used stuff. Allowing only Tamiya cars is a curious choice in my mind. From what I can determine there are only a few 180mm wide cars available. The specs on Tower's site lists F104's at 180, 183, and 205mm wide. Also the Wolf and Lotus 79 have "period correct" extra large rear and small front tires as they should. So, correct me if I'm mistaken, but the only legal 180mm cars are the Ferrari F60 and the McLaren Mercedes...

From talking to guys who have raced these cars this F104X1 is basicaly turn key ready right out of the box. No need to buy a f104 and then add a bunch of parts to get the car work well on carpet. Plus Hobby Stop West is going to work out a group buy sorta deal for us on the cars.

I think a critical part of the UF1 rules is the two class structure which allows old and new chassis to both run, + foam and rubber tires, and a variety of bodies.

We already have to many classes. You wanna race? This is the car you buy, this is the motor you run. Don't like it? Go run VTA, WGT, or Sedan. Rule with a iron fist!! I believe this will make for good races and bring the focus on car set up and driving and not ESC tunes, hottest latest greatest motors ect.

I agree that there is and has been a problem with the preception that only the very best and latest will do. The facts are that 99% of the time the best drivers are the only ones that can really fully utilize the high end stuff but you cannot change the perception no matter what you do. Believe me, I've tried!
Not sure what you are getting at with the comment on the Gas GT's. When I asked you about them last year you told me ther were a money pit, could not be made to run even box stock (2spd, Motor, traction etc) and to stay clear of them. Are you saying your surprised that the class is dead or almost dead? A basic electric class of simple design like F1, won't have any reliability issues. Well with the exception of the crashers, the cars aren't really THAT fragile but they aren't as protected or strong as a TC or even a WGT.

The GT class has very few rules and they are now being pushed hard. New cars keep coming out and the cars are starting to look more and more like big 1/8th on-road cars. One company even sells a belt driven GT car now.

I saw a set of rules from down under and they were pretty open as far as width and tires but I really like their point about scrutineering and that the cars must be representative of an actual F1 car or one from a "fantasy" team. (I can't remember the wording, but it meant you could make up your own paint job if it looked like it could have been a real car/team.)

I agree they should look like real cars. That might be something we will add after we discuss the more important details more.

My $3.80 worth.

Ned
Thanks for the insight Ned. I'm trying to get a class going because there are people who like the idea of a class they can race without all the other BS that comes with the other classes now. Our Sprint car class was great fun till the boosted ESC's showed up in a few cars with good driver's and then the class went down hill from there if you ask me.
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:16 PM   #60
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If you limit the motor and speed control the money being spent on a car is a non issue. RC is the first kind of racing I have been involved in where everyone thinks money=speed. Other forms of racing the guys spending lots of money are kind of a joke because they still cannot perform up to par with their equipment. Now in RC go dump $1000 and suddenly everyone consider you fast Money does not buy skill. The fast guys will still be fast with a budget car or a no budget car. People need to stop looking at what others spend and using that as an excuse for why they lost. This is the way to reduce what others think they need to spend to be competitive.
The issue again is what people see. Once they see a car with a bunch of money in it win they figure thats what it takes to win and they go back to playing PS3.
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