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Old 09-25-2004, 11:06 PM   #1
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Default Why not a national points system?

Since this item has been on the Starting Grid site for over a year and nothing has happened, I thought I'd post over here.

Tony Hines, also known as Skipgear, posted a points system ROAR could use for regional and national rankings. A system like that would add value to membership (what do I get for my $30??) as well as create some sort of ladder for people to work their way up.
You would have something conrete to shoot for.

Also, if it was used in a way similar to motorcross, you would have your "number plate" for a year. Very cool, you would have a number to run for real!

Finally, it could be used to qualify for the nationals. Some may disagree with this, but it would add more prestige to the event. Just accept the "qualified" drivers, if there was still room, then guys off the street could enter. At a minimum, it could be used to seed heats.

Anyway, the post from Skipgear follows.

Discuss.
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Old 09-25-2004, 11:07 PM   #2
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"#33 of 48 by ***Tony Hines (skipgear) ***on Tue Feb 18 11:51:00 2003:

Points Proposal #2

ROAR National Points Program

All points are figured the same for each type of racing.

Points would be based on a 25 point scale.
Points will be figured with one of two formulas:
Race with 25 racers or less.
Point = 26 - overall finish position.
Race with more than 25 entries.
Point = 26 - overall finish position + ((Class Entries -
25) / 2)
*If point is zero or less, the entrant receives one
point.
*Points are rounded down in the event of half points.

Example with less than 25 racers:
23 racers separated into 3 mains.
A main - (10 cars)
1st 25pt.
2nd 24pt.
3rd 23pt.
4th 22pt.
5th 21pt.
6th 20pt.
7th 19pt.
8th 18pt.
9th 17pt.
10th 16pt.
B Main - (7 cars)
1st 15pt. 11th overall
2nd 14pt. 12th overall
....... 7th 9pt. 17th overall
C Main - (6 cars)
1st 8pt. 18th overall
2nd 7pt 19th overall
....... 6th 3pt 23rd overall

Example with more than 25 racers:
30 racers separated into 3 mains.
A main - (10 cars)
1st 25pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 27pt.
2nd 24pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 26pt.
...... 10th 16pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 18pt.
B Main - (10 cars)
1st 15pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 17pt. 11th
overall
2nd 14pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 16pt.
12th overall
....... 10th 6pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 8pt. 20th
overall
C Main - (10 cars)
1st 5pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 7pt. 21st
overall
2nd 4pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 6pt. 22nd
overall
3rd 3pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 5pt. 23rd
overall
4th 2pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 4pt. 24th
overall
5th 1pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 3pt. 25th
overall
6th 0pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 2pt. 26th
overall
7th -1pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 27th
overall
8th -2pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 28th
overall
9th -3pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 29th
overall
10th -4pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 30th
overall

These formulae can easily be combined into one for a spreadsheet to
deal with easier.

Every ROAR race you enter scores points toward the class you enter.
Races outside your region still count toward your National point total
but not toward your regional point total.
Only Main event final results are scored so as to include the results
of bump ups and triple A mains.
Each level of race has a point multiplier.
Level 1 races would be awarded Points earned x 1 (local
club racing)
Level 2 races would be awarded Points earned x 2 (State
races)
Level 3 races would be awarded Points earned x 3
(Regional Races)
Level 4 races would be awarded Points earned x 5
(National Races)
*Rounding down of points does not occur until after the
multiplier has been figured in.

A racer that runs the same class every week at club races can attain
over 1000 points for a years worth of racing. There is no theoretical
maximum score because it would depend on the number of entries each
week and number of entries at the national events. Assuming a racer
running all year with a class count of 25 or less, winning every race
he enters, and attending 1 state race, 1 regional, and the nationals,
could generate a score of 1475 or higher depending on the number of
racers at the major events.

Racer Identification and Data handling:

Racers will be identified by their ROAR number.
Points won at each event will be applied to the class or classes run at
the event.
Classes will be given a specific class number for tracking purposes.
(See appendix A)
It is the racers responsibility to make sure that their Class and ROAR
# are correct when signing up for a points paying event.

*There are others working on a way for the Race Scoring systems
to directly download the data via the Internet. The only thing this may
require is a standard format for entering names in the various race
control system databases and some cooperation from the scoring software
companies. The racer data will include: ROAR#, Class#, ROAR Club #,
Date, Race Finish Data.

Each club/track should assign one member the responsibility to submit
the information to ROAR via the website or mail.
A second member should be assigned as a back up scorekeeper in the case
that the primary cannot perform his duty.
For clubs that do not have access to the Internet or do not have
electronic score keeping systems, results may be mailed monthly to
their Region director so that he may input the data. At this point I
doubt that this will be needed though.
*It is strongly advised that the Internet be used to submit
results to insure the accuracy and timeliness of the results.
Clubs would not be required to figure points totals, only to send in
the race results in a format that is acceptable.



Standings:

The ROAR website will have a section for each regions points so that
racers may compare themselves to others in their region.
ROAR will only list the top 100 national ranked points for each class
that is to be raced at National events.
Non-ROAR national classes will not be tracked by ROAR but region
directors are encouraged, but not required, to track the data for those
classes within their region. If the class shows strength through the
pointís results, it could be added as a ROAR class at a later date.
Drivers may look up their point total by querying the database with
their ROAR # and class number that they would like to see data for.
Ties are broken by the highest single race points. In the event that
the there is still a tie, the next highest will be used and so on.



In order to pay for the extra server space and time involved a second
level of membership may be needed or possible corporate sponsorship of
the points for each class.. If you do not care to have your points
tracked, you could pay the standard $30 membership. Single event
memberships of course would not include points tracking. If you wanted
to enter in the national points system, your membership may have an
additional charge to be determined at a later date.

(Not sure if that would go over or notÖ)

Once the database is up and running, it could also be used to track
activity in various parts of the country, see what classes are being
run where, etc.

The data could be manipulated in other ways also: Per race point
average (Points/# of races), Monthly sub point totals, etc. These may
be a way to satisfy the instant gratification era that we now live in.

Nothing in this is set in stone and is open for discussion but I feel
this is a good start. Most club tracks have enough racers for a B main
in the popular classes. Those clubs with larger turnouts usually have
stronger competition thus the reason for the bonus on classes larger
than 25 racers. This is the simplest format that I could come up with
that weighted the number of racers at an event without giving an over
abundant point bonus to extremely large clubs and tracks.

In order to make the points even more appealing, there could be a
national high points trophy at the end of the year for each class, that
each racers name could be added too, and then would be displayed at the
nationals each year. (this is done in SCCA in some classes)

Another option would be to have each class sponsored by a manufacture
that could offer sponsorship at the end of the season to high points in
the class by region or nationally. Maybe even a most improved award
every 3 months.

Any of these would be good reasons for club racers to encourage their
track to participate in the points system. If a racer wanted to be
involved, they would need to have a ROAR track to race at, thus they
would encourage their local track to join ROAR.

In order to make this a reality, it would need to be advertised to
create a desire to be involved. Manufacture involvement would
definitely kick things off. Imagine the ROAR Stock Touring Car National
Points Championship, presented by NOVAK.

The only other thing that could hold back implementation of this is
getting the data from the various race programs. We would need to
contact the software companies to see if they are willing to add the
changes we would need, free to the ROAR clubs using their software. I
think that AutoScore and J-Lap may already be able to transmit the race
data in a format that is usable.

Initially, this will just be a method of tracking points. Eventually,
as the bugs are worked out, it could be used to help seed the racers at
major events. We could also make a minimum point requirement to attend
regional and national events. This would #1, keep the factories from
sending ringers to a race (one race wonders that donít normally run the
class), and it may keep a new racer from being thrown into the fray too
quickly and getting discouraged.

In order to not give the impression that you must race all year to win
the points, maybe for regional titles or even the national chase, we
could take only the top 25 or 30 finishes.




This is still a work in progress; there will be more to come......
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Old 09-25-2004, 11:09 PM   #3
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Now, how does this get handled technically?? Jared Kirkwood has ideas too..

"#34 of 48 by Jared Kirkwood (jkirkwoo) on Tue Feb 18 16:49:25 2003:

I would like to take a moment to present a proposal on how to
technically handle such a system that Skip proposed.

Like Skip said we would need the support of the timing and scoring
software companies to do some updates to their software for submission
of the results to a Internet based XML API (Application Interface).
The tracks results submitted in XML format would give ROAR the ability
to validate the content of the submission very easily on arrival for
completeness. Plus ROAR would be able to define the data-types that
would be used in the points system to hand over to the software
companies for them to write the changes into the programs. Having the
API on the Internet would give ROAR track owners the ability to submit
results any time of the day and when it is most convenient for them.
Security of the data could easily be maintained but I will not go into
that at this time.
After the race data is submitted to the ROAR API then the results would
be parsed and entered into a database. No human interactions past
submission of the results would ever need to physically edit the data
or do any manual work to publish the data to the websites and/or
reports. This database would contain the data for each ROAR member
that is participating in the points series (it could be the
responsibility of the member to sign up for the program, which would be
available on the ROAR website). The race data, once in the database,
could easily be queried using the set of business rules to produce
regional and national level results per class to be displayed on the
website and/or other media types.

The cost of the system could be done cheaply by pulling in the talents
of ROAR members to do the work. At the same time I would propose that
the ROAR website be revamped to aid the ROAR promotions director to
reach new tracks, add online submissions of roar membership
applications and online payment, online voting, and provide ROAR
members with their own a persona pages that would link to their ROAR
points information and any other features that would be in the website
at later dates.

The length of time to build such a system is quiet short. There is
nothing fancy or hard about this basic architecture. If I took a quick
guess there is probably less than 100 hours RAD (Rapid Application
Development) time to do this. There is nothing to this that is rocket
science
"
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Old 09-25-2004, 11:14 PM   #4
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So, why has nothing happened yet? i think this could be the next level for rc racing, and serve to promote ROAR and make tracks and racers place a higher value on a ROAR membership. No other org would have both the points and the system to make it technically effortless to track. Looks like a no brainer to me.

I realize that this may be a "Roar" item, but I think that it deserves the exposure it would receive in the main forum.
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Old 09-26-2004, 12:03 AM   #5
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This is definately a great Idea. We need something to give the sport structure and give the drivers something to shoot for. A big plus to ROAR is the membership increase of not only drivers but tracks who want to participate. You should post this in the ROAR thread too.
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Old 09-26-2004, 08:18 AM   #6
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The thing is, this came from the ROAR thread at the starting grid. There just hasn't been any word on what they have decided, for or against.


#36 of 48 by David Lee 2-73792 (davidl) on Tue Feb 25 10:27:07 2003:

Tony - I think the membership cares. I also think the EXCOM has got
some work to do to figure out how to implement a National Points
Program. They are getting ready for their yearly meeting and there are
other topics to prepare for as well. I suggest you not stand pat with
what you have. It would be good to continue refining and defining so
that when the EXCOM is ready, so are you.


#37 of 48 by Dawn Sanchez (dawn) on Tue Feb 25 11:44:35 2003:

Tony - your ideas are well stated and well thought out. I know I have printed this thread out and am attempting to absorb all the information you have provided. But, as David said.... we (the ExComm) are meeting next month and this will be a topic that will come up. Please, be patient....
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Old 09-26-2004, 08:29 AM   #7
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There where about 4 or 5 of us in Region 5 that helped Skip on this.....

I have sent it to other Excom members also.....
very little or no response....

Without ROAR backing it, it's VERY hard to make it go anywhere.

Homer(Tiltyard) to this kind of idea and went with Radio Nation
www.radiocontrollednation.org
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Old 09-26-2004, 10:46 AM   #8
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Default ROAR's purpose

I used to race moto cross alot in my much younger day. I have wished for a national points system for years. The pro's were nationally ranked. There was also a regional points system for us mere mortals. My District was District 37, here on the west coast.

Seems to me that this gives some legitamacy (sp?) to the races and something to work towards. I was #5 in my class one year and am still proud of that accomplishment thirty years later.

It seems to me that ROAR has morphed into a body that is solely concerned with making rules about equipment, such as motors and batteries.

Though I think this is very important, vital if you will, I think that ROAR has lost some of its vision as a racing organization. It needs to get back to the grass roots of promoting racing and developing the racer.

I have belonged to ROAR off and on a few times and have always felt like the money paided just went out the window. I didn't see any direct benifit to me as a racer.

ROAR should consider this points system thing and try more to encourage the different ROAR districts to have a series-type format that could utilize a points/number plate type system.

Track directors should realize that their drivers racing at another track is a positive thing for the sport, and brings new racers into the fold, making the sport GROW!!!! Thats good for everyone!

Lee Caldwell So Cal Raceway

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Old 09-26-2004, 10:51 AM   #9
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One of the main things this would help is to bring more importance back to State & Regional races....

As it stands right now, they are just another trophy race.
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Old 09-26-2004, 11:00 AM   #10
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I concur. Just another club race.

Doesn't Tamiya use some national/world wide series type format with a numbering system?
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:08 PM   #11
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I thin this would be a very good idea. Thanks for posting his idea Rob.
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graphitedust
I concur. Just another club race.

Doesn't Tamiya use some national/world wide series type format with a numbering system?
Sort of. In the TCS series, you need to finish top-10 in class to qualify to go to the Nationals. Even if you don't, just by running a regional you qualify for a Last Chance Qualifier the Friday of the Nats to get in. If there are less than 10 guys in a class who show up who didn't finish top 10, then they just integrate them into that class. The winner of the class gets to go to Japan and compete at the Worlds.
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:49 PM   #13
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ttt
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:04 PM   #14
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TTT Why are we waiting??
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:38 PM   #15
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I would like one of the members who is running for president to get behind this and run with it. One person seems to stick out in my mind as someone who will prob win out and i cant believe he hasnt at least commented on this system . I think the people who came up with this system did a great job thinking this up.


Way to bring this back up rob. I didnt see it the first time it was brought up.
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