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Old 12-14-2010, 01:37 PM   #106
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A: why would we need to attend a "novice school" - SCCA does that for liability and safety reasons. Drivers are driving a 1.5 ton guided missile with soft bodies right nearby. . . there's no safety reason with RC cars (well, small safety issue. . . )

B: Be wary of trying to imitate SCCA. As smracer noted, SCCA is HUGELY about politics. The rulebook for autocross is HUGE in part because of the politics of racers lobbying for this and that exemption or rule change. The rallycross rulebook has expanded because of this same lobbying (adding an LSD in Prepared? Seriously?)

Take the principles, yes. . . don't go too far. Look at the bad and avoid; take the good.



The biggest issue I have with the National thing is that you have vastly different groups running. You will have "homers" who will do well at their ROAR track but suck elsewhere (looking in the mirror! LOL) so they could earn max points but not really be worthy of a national ranking. . .


In any case, I think it might be a good idea to do a trial run. Many tracks are now putting their results online, yes? Gather as many as you can and start putting them in. . .


As far as logistics go, it's not a complicated one. The database is pretty simple, as far as the initial table goes. Fields for name, UID (gonna need a unique ID), region, etc. Probably secondary tables for tracks, classes and scores. Not a big deal.

The big thing, honestly, is going to be the data feeds. Does any RC scoring program export xml feeds? If so, that would streamline things tremendously.



However, I'd be curious as to the ultimate goal for this. . . is it to qualify for a National championship? Is it just bragging rights? No criticism intended, just asking is all. . .
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:42 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
A: why would we need to attend a "novice school" - SCCA does that for liability and safety reasons. Drivers are driving a 1.5 ton guided missile with soft bodies right nearby. . . there's no safety reason with RC cars (well, small safety issue. . . )

B: Be wary of trying to imitate SCCA. As smracer noted, SCCA is HUGELY about politics. The rulebook for autocross is HUGE in part because of the politics of racers lobbying for this and that exemption or rule change. The rallycross rulebook has expanded because of this same lobbying (adding an LSD in Prepared? Seriously?)

Take the principles, yes. . . don't go too far. Look at the bad and avoid; take the good.



The biggest issue I have with the National thing is that you have vastly different groups running. You will have "homers" who will do well at their ROAR track but suck elsewhere (looking in the mirror! LOL) so they could earn max points but not really be worthy of a national ranking. . .


In any case, I think it might be a good idea to do a trial run. Many tracks are now putting their results online, yes? Gather as many as you can and start putting them in. . .


As far as logistics go, it's not a complicated one. The database is pretty simple, as far as the initial table goes. Fields for name, UID (gonna need a unique ID), region, etc. Probably secondary tables for tracks, classes and scores. Not a big deal.

The big thing, honestly, is going to be the data feeds. Does any RC scoring program export xml feeds? If so, that would streamline things tremendously.



However, I'd be curious as to the ultimate goal for this. . . is it to qualify for a National championship? Is it just bragging rights? No criticism intended, just asking is all. . .
As far as the diversity in racers from different regions, i agree, theres a large variance in talent from region to region, however, thats what qualifying at the worlds is for. Obviously those drivers wont make the A-main, but they should still be allowed the chance to race at the same venue as the 'pros'

I think the ultimate goal of this is to garner more enthusiasm in and around the r/c industry. Like other 'sports,' people in general want to compete and make a name for themselves. I think this would also help to get more drivers recognized in the industry. Theres a lot of talented individuals that dont have the time, money, or luxury of traveling around the country to attend the big races. Giving these competitors the ability to strive for a 'regional championship' title, will hopefully attract new people to the industry, and get those already in r/c more involved in their clubs racing programs.

On another note, there are tracks following these same principals. Tq Racing in California has its own championship series that has taken off very fast!, they now have a packed house at each championship race. What started out as a small group of guys having fun is now a very large competitive event. So the formula does work, its just up to roar as to wether or not they want to capitalize on it.
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Old 12-14-2010, 04:55 PM   #108
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Back in the SoCalRC days, we had a traveling points series for our pan car guys - it was a blast!

I'm looking forward to participating in the TQ points series pretty soon. . . but that's honestly what I think would work better than a National points series - a Regional/Divisional one. . . it'd be far easier (logistically) to administer as well. . .

and if it takes off, then expand it to cover more regions/divisions
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:04 PM   #109
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That would be easier...and again top 5 or so in each class in points in each region qualify for nationals

Last edited by trackdesigner71; 12-14-2010 at 05:14 PM. Reason: didnt see Boomer's post
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:56 PM   #110
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That would be easier...and again top 5 or so in each class in points in each region qualify for nationals
you're going to have issues with making this a qualifier for Nationals.

Really, it's close to the same blemish we have with the SuperBowl - the game played in February isn't generally a matchup between the two BEST teams in Football. . . that happened sometime in the playoffs. . .

By limiting it to 5 (or 10) that can go to Nationals, you're going to cut off someone who is actually deserving because he's from a very strong region and you're going to allow someone inferior because he's from a fairly weak region.

Think NFC West. . . they are going to get one team in the playoffs and it's entirely possible that they will have a losing record. . .

And what do you do if the 5 who are eligible cannot all go? Do you extend that downward to the next 5? Then, honestly, what's the point?


Also, what if you get a friggin STAR who had appendicitis and was out for 3 months? He loses points but is acclaimed as the best in his region. . . do you say, "no" to him just because he got laid low by a vermiform organ that we don't even USE anymore???


Don't get me wrong - I love points series. . . but if you want to make it a qualifying series, there are a LOT of considerations you need to figure out beforehand. It's a LOT more than just coming up with a system. . . you need to consider all of the contingencies. . .
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:20 PM   #111
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for some reason i really don't see a points system making roar races popular again.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:24 PM   #112
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1. attend 2 "drivers schools" at your local track (this will require help from some of the more experienced drivers...have one maybe once or twice a month and cover the basics of RC and racing...maybe let em run a few laps to get a feel for driving on a track)
2. After completing 2 drivers schools and 3 club races they can get a limited membership that allows for running at local and regional events
3. Complete 2 regional events (plus the $30 fee) and get a full national membership

Or something like that...
Anything requiring people to attend a two day school before they're allowed to race is a non-starter. That's what Novice class is for. If they just want to get their feet wet, that's what practice days are for.

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I actually think that Nationals would be like the Runoffs...take top 3-5 in each region in each class to qualify for nationals...then have practice/qualifying Sunday-Thursday and then Friday-Sunday run all the mains.

11 classes x Top 5 in points per class is 55

55 x 10 regions...550 racers...
You're dreaming. It's hard enough getting people to show up to the ROAR Nats now, and that's just for a Thursday - Sunday race. You're proposing a week long event, along with the associated week long hotel bill?

And 11 classes? When was the last time you raced at an event that had enough racers to justify 11 classes? We're having a hard enough time with 1/12 stock/mod, TC stock/mod, WGT, and VTA.

Unless every scoring program automagically submits results to a central database, I don't see it happening. Track owners need more work like they need a hole in their head.

How would you handicap results submitted from Fred Amateur in Timbuktu's local Friday night club race vs a race like the Halloween Classic? A first place (out of three racers) is a lot different then tenth place out of 85 racers.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:25 PM   #113
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It would have helped on road a couple years ago. It would probably be awesome for offroad now, not that offroad needs the help...
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:28 PM   #114
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The idea is more for club racing, but if you look at the proposal, it weights the points by numbers of entries in the class. In theory, a well attended larger race offers a much larger number of points.

And if you look at the first posts, an automatic XML submission to a database is mentioned as a key to participation.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:47 PM   #115
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my 2 cents, i think we as racers have to back ROAR a little bit more, do they always make the best choices, not really sure, but ever major race you go to IIC, Indoor Champs, Birds run pretty close to a roar rulebook with some deviations to their specific event, that for the most part racers like. So stop bashing it come up with your own set of rules and start your own org. I think one thing that would get more racers to attend a ROAR race is to make the regionalís actually mean something and use them as qualifying for the ROAR NATís. I think if ROAR really hyped up the ROAR regional races it make for a better turnout for the nats. Here is my wacky idea. I will take the upcoming year for the electric paved nats class of racing. Letís say they are July 28th-31st (which they are by the way in 11). Maybe 1 month-6 weeks prior you have a Super Regionalís Weekend and every region in the country that weekend has their ROAR region race and it is used as a qualifier to make it out to the nats top 10 in each class get the ďgolden ticketĒ so to speak and if they want it they take it and if not the next guy in the finishing order get it . . . etc. Makes a little hype for the event and makes regionalís mean something again. Maybe take a couple of wild cards and guys from the home track that wants to enter. Not too far off of what the NCAA does with menís basketball in March. Think about how many people watch college basketball for a month that have not watched one game the last 4 months . . . flame on
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:06 PM   #116
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Now we are getting some debate going...

A lot of what I said were ideas I had bandying about that I thought Id throw out there (probably should have mentioned that from the outset) based on what Ive read. Of course there would have to be contingencies considered (God forbid someone gets appendicitis and can't race for three months...).

In response to CarbonJoe, having them run novice class would be a very fair idea. How long would be acceptable before they move up to a different classification (say Sportsman or what have you)?
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:38 PM   #117
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I just had a thought in light of what Boomer said a post or three above...he does raise a good point in that there may be a top notch hotshoe racer who could make some real noise at the nationals but if he misses a significant amount of time, even if there were throwout scores, if he didnt race for three months he'd still have quite a few zeroes in his score and then he wouldnt be able to qualify. What about if they took the top 10 but each region could name some number (lets for sake of example say...5) of "at large" candidates for the nationals. add that in with a couple local wildcards and youll still have a pretty decent field within each class.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:25 PM   #118
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Haven't posted in this thread in a while, but my views:

I don't believe National/Regional points ranking should be a qualifying method for national events. Average points per event would be a little more sensible way for invitational structured events. [like I said here]

I also don't believe this something that ROAR, specifically, should have to implement or maintain to become a reality

I do believe that a National ranking system is needed for other reasons though, such as: verification of resumes for sponsorship opportunities, the creation of a searchable database for people willing/wanting to travel to see where some BIG turnout weekly local races are being held, and for determining invites to special events.

In the end, though, just talking about it isn't going to accomplish anything. From those who've commented in this thread so far, I'm the only one that's spoken up about having programming experience, and I don't have the time to write, test, implement, and maintain something of this level. Everyone else want's "somebody" to do it.

If you really want ROAR to do something with this, first become a member [if you're not already], then contact your Regional reps, don't keep bumping this thread and saying "we need to talk about this" or "this is a good idea", take some action.
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Old 12-15-2010, 12:12 AM   #119
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+100

I ran/promoted and competed for a number of years in Bicylce races....it was nearly impossible to get other promotors to submit results, and that was with AMB systems in use!!! Heck at one time I was ranked in the top 10 in the state......and I KNOW that wasn't right.

The point is it needs to be as automatic and easy as possible. I'm a big fan of the Idea and perhaps the best way would be to approach it through RC-Scoring Pro.
I looked up RC Scoring Pro and I certainly think that it is a very viable option. Im headed home for the holidays this weekend and I'll see if I can talk to a couple of the local hotshoes down at my local track and see what their thoughts are. I think that with RCSP already well established at many tracks out there I think that would be a good test bed for a regional type points series
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:54 AM   #120
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And if you look at the first posts, an automatic XML submission to a database is mentioned as a key to participation.
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I looked up RC Scoring Pro and I certainly think that it is a very viable option. Im headed home for the holidays this weekend and I'll see if I can talk to a couple of the local hotshoes down at my local track and see what their thoughts are. I think that with RCSP already well established at many tracks out there I think that would be a good test bed for a regional type points series
Unless this is a free (or very low cost) update, how many tracks are going to pay to get the latest version? Is your track always running the latest version? A couple of local tracks are running a version that is well over a year old.
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