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Old 12-12-2010, 07:55 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by henry View Post
I don't race onroad but I sometimes skim the section and I found this thread interesting so here goes.

RC_Dan you just mentioned something else that would be needed for this to happen. PROMOTION. A point series doesn't even get off of the ground if nobody even knows about it.

There would have to be some incentive for manufacturers to support/sponsor this. Also, there would need to be incentive for racers to drop the coin on a ROAR membership.

Promotion comes into play here.

One thing I have noticed is that the mags don't cover racing like they used to. Also, you don't see internet sites giving detailed accounts of the races themselves.

I really think if we got the hobby-related media outlets to focus a bit more on the racing end of it that would go a long way to helping this function.
Rob,
The way I read that I think maybe Henry is thinking about a national type point series. Something like the ETS in Europe rather than a national driver points ranking.

Later,
Darrald
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:29 AM   #77
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Rob,
The way I read that I think maybe Henry is thinking about a national type point series. Something like the ETS in Europe rather than a national driver points ranking.

Later,
Darrald
It's not gonna happen in on road for sure. The USA is way too big.

If you read the thread, it was never about making guys travel all over. Quite the opposite, actually.
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Old 12-12-2010, 11:15 AM   #78
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I think that taking a page from SCCA might be a better idea. they have regions with their own events, plus a few major events that bring in racers from all over and then finish with a national championship at the end of the year.

Make it a full week event much like the Runoffs. have 2-3 carpet events and 2-3 asphalt events that can offer double points throughout the year or some sort of incentive and then have the top 2-5 in each region points get an invite to the end of year nationals. You could have these classes (using the ROAR class structure):

Expert 12th
Expert World GT (10.5)
Expert Touring
Sportsman 12th
Sportsman World GT (13.5)
Sportsman Touring
Open 12th
Open Touring
F1
RCGT
Vintage Trans-Am

This is all just stuff I have in my head right now but at least this is being thought about again
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Old 12-12-2010, 03:59 PM   #79
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I think that taking a page from SCCA might be a better idea. they have regions with their own events, plus a few major events that bring in racers from all over and then finish with a national championship at the end of the year.

Make it a full week event much like the Runoffs. have 2-3 carpet events and 2-3 asphalt events that can offer double points throughout the year or some sort of incentive and then have the top 2-5 in each region points get an invite to the end of year nationals. You could have these classes (using the ROAR class structure):

Expert 12th
Expert World GT (10.5)
Expert Touring
Sportsman 12th
Sportsman World GT (13.5)
Sportsman Touring
Open 12th
Open Touring
F1
RCGT
Vintage Trans-Am

This is all just stuff I have in my head right now but at least this is being thought about again
I was pretty much thinking on this level.

I think maybe if we had a limited regional series where a certain number of the points leaders in every class got to go to nationals that could work as well. It'd have to be run alongside each tracks point series.

I'm only talking maybe about 3 or 4 races for each region championship. This, I think would mean that the regional championships would have to broken down more by population than by the current geographical regions. And this somewhat coincides with my whole spiel about promotion. If a regional champion could open up an r.c. car magazine and see their name in there that's exposure for them and a chance for manuf. to get exposure for their products given manuf. more value in return for sponsoring drivers.

I truly believe that if the manuf. saw more value in ROAR they'd be more inclined to get more involved with the racing end.

And the whole thing about travel is that if an individual doesn't want to drive several hours to a regional is that same person going to want to drive double that (or more) to a national?
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:50 PM   #80
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And the whole thing about travel is that if an individual doesn't want to drive several hours to a regional is that same person going to want to drive double that (or more) to a national?
That is the whole point. You can race for a points ranking without racing beyond your home track, theoretically. If there where a few tracks in the area that all participated, you could race a different one each week as well. The idea is that this would be for those who are not typically attending national events.

Working this into the regional, or using it to qualify for nationals is also part of a broader plan. Right now there needs to be enough racers trying to get to nationals for there to be a need to qualify them.
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Old 12-12-2010, 07:07 PM   #81
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that would require a level of math knowledge way beyond me to break down regions by population. I was thinking something like this

Region 1
Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Massachusetts
Connecticut
Rhode Island

Region 2
New York
New Jersey
Maryland
Pennsylvania
West Virginia

Region 3
Virginia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Kentucky
Tennessee

Region 4
Georgia
Alabama
Mississippi
Florida
Louisiana

Region 5
Ohio
Illinois
Indiana
Michigan
Wisconsin

Region 6
Minnesota
Iowa
Nebraska
North Dakota
South Dakota

Region 7
Missouri
Kansas
Oklahoma
Arkansas
Colorado

Region 8
Texas (its big enough...)

Region 9
New Mexico
Arizona
Nevada
Utah
Southern California

Region 10
Northern California
Oregon
Washington
Idaho
Wyoming

Region 11
Hawaii

Again all of this is just inside my head right now
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:34 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
That is the whole point. You can race for a points ranking without racing beyond your home track, theoretically. If there where a few tracks in the area that all participated, you could race a different one each week as well. The idea is that this would be for those who are not typically attending national events.

Working this into the regional, or using it to qualify for nationals is also part of a broader plan. Right now there needs to be enough racers trying to get to nationals for there to be a need to qualify them.
Gotcha, so something on the order of what IMCA has in the full-scale racing world?

I would think that you might want to have some kind of mathematical adjustment based on individual track and class turnout. How that would work or what that would be I don't know.
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:43 PM   #83
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So 6 years later there is still nothing established? So what does your membership get you other than eligibility for the national championship.
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:22 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by henry View Post
Gotcha, so something on the order of what IMCA has in the full-scale racing world?

I would think that you might want to have some kind of mathematical adjustment based on individual track and class turnout. How that would work or what that would be I don't know.
somebody actually worked that out in a post a few pages back.
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:27 PM   #85
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here it is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
"#33 of 48 by ***Tony Hines (skipgear) ***on Tue Feb 18 11:51:00 2003:

Points Proposal #2

ROAR National Points Program

All points are figured the same for each type of racing.

Points would be based on a 25 point scale.
Points will be figured with one of two formulas:
Race with 25 racers or less.
Point = 26 - overall finish position.
Race with more than 25 entries.
Point = 26 - overall finish position + ((Class Entries -
25) / 2)
*If point is zero or less, the entrant receives one
point.
*Points are rounded down in the event of half points.

Example with less than 25 racers:
23 racers separated into 3 mains.
A main - (10 cars)
1st 25pt.
2nd 24pt.
3rd 23pt.
4th 22pt.
5th 21pt.
6th 20pt.
7th 19pt.
8th 18pt.
9th 17pt.
10th 16pt.
B Main - (7 cars)
1st 15pt. 11th overall
2nd 14pt. 12th overall
....... 7th 9pt. 17th overall
C Main - (6 cars)
1st 8pt. 18th overall
2nd 7pt 19th overall
....... 6th 3pt 23rd overall

Example with more than 25 racers:
30 racers separated into 3 mains.
A main - (10 cars)
1st 25pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 27pt.
2nd 24pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 26pt.
...... 10th 16pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 18pt.
B Main - (10 cars)
1st 15pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 17pt. 11th
overall
2nd 14pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 16pt.
12th overall
....... 10th 6pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 8pt. 20th
overall
C Main - (10 cars)
1st 5pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 7pt. 21st
overall
2nd 4pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 6pt. 22nd
overall
3rd 3pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 5pt. 23rd
overall
4th 2pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 4pt. 24th
overall
5th 1pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 3pt. 25th
overall
6th 0pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 2pt. 26th
overall
7th -1pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 27th
overall
8th -2pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 28th
overall
9th -3pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 29th
overall
10th -4pt.+ 2.5 bonus = 1pt. 30th
overall

These formulae can easily be combined into one for a spreadsheet to
deal with easier.

Every ROAR race you enter scores points toward the class you enter.
Races outside your region still count toward your National point total
but not toward your regional point total.
Only Main event final results are scored so as to include the results
of bump ups and triple A mains.
Each level of race has a point multiplier.
Level 1 races would be awarded Points earned x 1 (local
club racing)
Level 2 races would be awarded Points earned x 2 (State
races)
Level 3 races would be awarded Points earned x 3
(Regional Races)
Level 4 races would be awarded Points earned x 5
(National Races)
*Rounding down of points does not occur until after the
multiplier has been figured in.

A racer that runs the same class every week at club races can attain
over 1000 points for a years worth of racing. There is no theoretical
maximum score because it would depend on the number of entries each
week and number of entries at the national events. Assuming a racer
running all year with a class count of 25 or less, winning every race
he enters, and attending 1 state race, 1 regional, and the nationals,
could generate a score of 1475 or higher depending on the number of
racers at the major events.

Racer Identification and Data handling:

Racers will be identified by their ROAR number.
Points won at each event will be applied to the class or classes run at
the event.
Classes will be given a specific class number for tracking purposes.
(See appendix A)
It is the racers responsibility to make sure that their Class and ROAR
# are correct when signing up for a points paying event.

*There are others working on a way for the Race Scoring systems
to directly download the data via the Internet. The only thing this may
require is a standard format for entering names in the various race
control system databases and some cooperation from the scoring software
companies. The racer data will include: ROAR#, Class#, ROAR Club #,
Date, Race Finish Data.

Each club/track should assign one member the responsibility to submit
the information to ROAR via the website or mail.
A second member should be assigned as a back up scorekeeper in the case
that the primary cannot perform his duty.
For clubs that do not have access to the Internet or do not have
electronic score keeping systems, results may be mailed monthly to
their Region director so that he may input the data. At this point I
doubt that this will be needed though.
*It is strongly advised that the Internet be used to submit
results to insure the accuracy and timeliness of the results.
Clubs would not be required to figure points totals, only to send in
the race results in a format that is acceptable.



Standings:

The ROAR website will have a section for each regions points so that
racers may compare themselves to others in their region.
ROAR will only list the top 100 national ranked points for each class
that is to be raced at National events.
Non-ROAR national classes will not be tracked by ROAR but region
directors are encouraged, but not required, to track the data for those
classes within their region. If the class shows strength through the
pointís results, it could be added as a ROAR class at a later date.
Drivers may look up their point total by querying the database with
their ROAR # and class number that they would like to see data for.
Ties are broken by the highest single race points. In the event that
the there is still a tie, the next highest will be used and so on.



In order to pay for the extra server space and time involved a second
level of membership may be needed or possible corporate sponsorship of
the points for each class.. If you do not care to have your points
tracked, you could pay the standard $30 membership. Single event
memberships of course would not include points tracking. If you wanted
to enter in the national points system, your membership may have an
additional charge to be determined at a later date.

(Not sure if that would go over or notÖ)

Once the database is up and running, it could also be used to track
activity in various parts of the country, see what classes are being
run where, etc.

The data could be manipulated in other ways also: Per race point
average (Points/# of races), Monthly sub point totals, etc. These may
be a way to satisfy the instant gratification era that we now live in.

Nothing in this is set in stone and is open for discussion but I feel
this is a good start. Most club tracks have enough racers for a B main
in the popular classes. Those clubs with larger turnouts usually have
stronger competition thus the reason for the bonus on classes larger
than 25 racers. This is the simplest format that I could come up with
that weighted the number of racers at an event without giving an over
abundant point bonus to extremely large clubs and tracks.

In order to make the points even more appealing, there could be a
national high points trophy at the end of the year for each class, that
each racers name could be added too, and then would be displayed at the
nationals each year. (this is done in SCCA in some classes)

Another option would be to have each class sponsored by a manufacture
that could offer sponsorship at the end of the season to high points in
the class by region or nationally. Maybe even a most improved award
every 3 months.

Any of these would be good reasons for club racers to encourage their
track to participate in the points system. If a racer wanted to be
involved, they would need to have a ROAR track to race at, thus they
would encourage their local track to join ROAR.

In order to make this a reality, it would need to be advertised to
create a desire to be involved. Manufacture involvement would
definitely kick things off. Imagine the ROAR Stock Touring Car National
Points Championship, presented by NOVAK.

The only other thing that could hold back implementation of this is
getting the data from the various race programs. We would need to
contact the software companies to see if they are willing to add the
changes we would need, free to the ROAR clubs using their software. I
think that AutoScore and J-Lap may already be able to transmit the race
data in a format that is usable.

Initially, this will just be a method of tracking points. Eventually,
as the bugs are worked out, it could be used to help seed the racers at
major events. We could also make a minimum point requirement to attend
regional and national events. This would #1, keep the factories from
sending ringers to a race (one race wonders that donít normally run the
class), and it may keep a new racer from being thrown into the fray too
quickly and getting discouraged.

In order to not give the impression that you must race all year to win
the points, maybe for regional titles or even the national chase, we
could take only the top 25 or 30 finishes.




This is still a work in progress; there will be more to come......
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:22 PM   #86
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here is the SCCA points structure:

http://www.scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=91 (national)

they actually have a process to get a national license as well.

1. Obtain a Novice Permit
2. Complete two "drivers schools" and compete in (and complete) two regional races using your novice permit to obtain a regional competition license (there are a few things that have to be done first of course)
3. Compete in (and complete) four regional races and you get a full national license

I think a process similar to this ( http://www.scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=40 ) plus working with a magazine like RCCA or RCDriver or even XRC to maybe get discounted subscriptions for members would be a good thing and give a lot more return for the membership fee
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:45 PM   #87
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SCCA is setup how the ideal points system for scale racing would be. With regional races (typical club race) only counting for points within your region. And national races (which are just bigger regional races that draw most the fast guys) counting for eligibility for the national championship Runoffs.

How ROAR has not duplicated that structure which has been used for years and successfully vetted in automotive racing I don't know. Its not rocket science.
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:02 PM   #88
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I think there ought to be about 8-10 national level races (I think that is how many they use for the Super Sweep program in SCCA) where racers can earn points in the classes I listed a few posts ago.

With 11 of them it can make for some interesting logistical challenges though
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:29 PM   #89
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The point system or ranking system has been discussed off and on for as long as I can remember. There has never been any traction behind the idea because it would be more involved than most would like to admit.

Want more for your $30? Why not start with getting the bigger regional and national races to be ROAR events. Thirty bucks for one or two events a year is a joke.

There are bigger fish to fry in onroad than points and the whole ROAR thing. Like maybe getting buts to the racetrack.
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:57 PM   #90
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I think to help that will require cutting down on the number of classes (which ROAR in a way addressed with the Sportsman, Expert and Open distinctions)

the ESC and motor wars certainly hurt things across the board because many tracks have so many different rules or interpretations of the rules
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