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Old 03-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #181
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Racer X has a bunch of boobs that he races against and wins constantly.
What track is this? Any kind of photo gallery?
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:33 PM   #182
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Hey Joe, Do you know if the data from the timing system are saved to file at the end of racedays or are the printouts the only records of past events. I would like to take a look at some samples and try a couple things just for shoots and giggles.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:43 PM   #183
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Hey Joe, Do you know if the data from the timing system are saved to file at the end of racedays or are the printouts the only records of past events. I would like to take a look at some samples and try a couple things just for shoots and giggles.
According to the features of RC Scoring Pro, it can:

http://www.rcscoringpro.com/features.html

Multiple track support
• Retain racers’ data for future events (Results, Lap Times, Practice Laps, everything)
• Points season
• HTML, JPG, PDF, TXT output for easy web viewing
• Recall & print results from prior events
• Race replication – run previous races as if they were live

The trick is to get the Race Director to get you the data in the format you want. I still don't know why we just don't post the Results in HTML on our Website?
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:20 PM   #184
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I still don't know why we just don't post the Results in HTML on our Website?
Yes, that would be a very nice feature.

The thing that everybody needs to be very aware of is that any system to rank drivers is inherantly going to be flawed and there is no way around it. If there are 30,000 r/c racers in the country, all of them would have to race each other face to face on a regular basis to have factual results. Otherwise ANY system WILL REQUIRE a certain level of inference. Ranking drivers that face each other is easy, ranking drivers that do not is when things get tricky.
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:44 PM   #185
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while all good on the face value a national points system based on local club races is near impossible without someone being able to post the result to a central database with some ease of one click control. most tracks are lucky to even have internet access at the track let alone someone that is savvy enough to know what to do with the results. I have ran my track for the last 3 years and helped the last 2 owners with website support and results posting the last near 8 years. I have the results from 9/24/2004 the first race at the track on the website, you show me any other track that can say that.

the point is getting that information to the sanctioning body is the hardest bit of logistics you need to figure out. point system is irrelevant till that is figured out. plus the fact that my track isn't a roar track, even though I have been a roar member on and off since 1986. where does that leave me in the points system? as I have run the 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 and soon 2012 roar carpet nats and 2008 2011 and possible 2012 roar pavement nats would this preclude me from being even able to get in the race or as suggested stack me in a heat of non roar members to fend for myself? it would make me think against going.

what about tech. most scca events have some kind of tech. I tech nothing at my track. it's club racing for bragging rights and gentlemen rules of conduct on class conformance. some days I run mod in the 13.5 12th scale class if I'm bored enough and don't want to change motors. how does the sanctioning body know this? and who says the track owner/points keeper doesn't fib and adjust the points to make him show finishing higher so he ranks higher. remember it's just toy cars for bowling trophies. until some kind of sponsor is willing to put of real money for tracking and teching a national points system, someone will put a 13 turn motor in a 19 turn can.....
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:00 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
... until some kind of sponsor is willing to put of real money for tracking and teching a national points system,
someone will put a 13 turn motor in a 19 turn can.....

If a person is willing to do it now (motor to fast for class rules, "cheat") for free at a club race, it's not going to get better with money behind it or
solve that problem on a local level. Just putting that out there.

I think you'll find 99% of club racers have the integrity required not to knowingly cheat the rules.

If real money will solve the problem, how much money is "real money"?

You guys are going about this completely incorrectly. There is money out there being spent. But you're looking out for yourselves, which is of
course, human nature. Imagine a scenario where you're looking out for a company instead, and you get what you see in the picture below.
Traxxas is looking out for itself. What would it take for you to get a proper points system? You have to look out for somebody, you don't just
get to pick their pocket for free. John Force said, "Traxxas, guess what I can do for you!", and Traxxas said, "Why yes, thank you, that
would be lovely". The only time anybody from the RC Hobby calls Traxxas is when they want race prizes....

Yea, yea, yea, me, me, me... What are you willing to do for a sponsor that kicks in "Real Money"? What's in it for them? In the below scenario,
what would be in it for Traxxas? Clearly, they can swing the big bat. Why doesn't it swing your way?

Had they come on the forums here and said, "we want to start a national points system with cash and prizes and travel..." 75% of you would
have complained that they had to do it with a Traxxas car, not the one they already have.

So Traxxas focuses on Traxxas, and selling Traxxas. While we worry about a club race guy with different rotor in his can and debate it for 14
pages. Or how we can trick a light to blink on a speedo. MEANWHILE, we have the stuff in the picture below. Anybody picking up what
I'm putting down?

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Old 03-08-2012, 11:44 PM   #187
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Yes, I could have found a smaller picture. I know, right, how irritating, screwing up the spacing of the page. Making it all hard to read.
Stupid big picture messing things up.

Now ask yourself how initially irritated you were that the picture above (with the SPONSOR LOGOS on it) made this page harder to read?...
If you thought that, why-o-why would any company want to sponsor something like a national points system? Our own
Stormer Hobbies ads here on the forums. THOUSANDS of dollars a month so we can have an online place to hang out. And now, lots
of threads on how to eliminate the ads.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:10 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post

Had they come on the forums here and said, "we want to start a national points system with cash and prizes and travel..." 75% of you would
have complained that they had to do it with a Traxxas car, not the one they already have.
This is why we can't have nice things.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:19 AM   #189
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I completely understand how a person's mind works when they want everything to go as planned, for all relevent information to be included and all results proper. Believe me, I do. I am that kind of detail oriented person. However, there comes a point in many processes where you simply have to discontinue dwelling over the fine details. Otherwise, it becomes simply too difficult to manage and honestly will not have that large of an overall impact on the results in the end.

As far as getting the information to a central hub. There's not a whole lot you can do about that. Clubs either will or won't want to participate. I don't know that I have any answers for that question. I don't know if I have any answers for any of it, just ideas here and there on direction. Not every club runs the same timing system. Not all clubs run the same carpet. Heck, not all clubs run the same turn motor in the same class! There will always be a ton of variance that you simply won't be able to take into account. You have to decide what things you can reasonably track and what is not worth counting.

Please, don't tell me that the system is irrelevant just because you can't get the data out. Everything goes hand in hand. The system would be based on a particular concept. It is the concept that seems to be so up in the air still.

BTW- Great post Bob. I love reading your input.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:35 PM   #190
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Traxxas sponsoring Courtney Force's Funny Car is nothing more than advertising for them. A rolling billboard, if you will. NHRA already has multi-year deals with ESPN to televise the 23 or so National events. Millions of viewers mean millions of potential customers. I've seen plenty of ads on ESPN for the XO-1 during NHRA races. Why would Traxxas sponsor anything RC event related unless there was TV coverage?

Without TV coverage, they would be advertising to their own market. Not much chance of growing the market that way. Also, we have close to zero spectators in RC. How can we get RC races some television exposure? I mean, they televise a damned spelling bee on ESPN, why not a highlight of the ROAR Nationals? Motorama? Vegas? The Snowbirds? That might drum up a little interest.

The tracks and NHRA promote and run all of the events, not the racers themselves. The NHRA posts the results, and tabulates the points after events, not the track owners (or racers). But those are for National level events. Plenty of drag strips have local points series, but not many of them earn points in the NHRA.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:59 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
Traxxas sponsoring Courtney Force's Funny Car is nothing more than advertising for them. A rolling billboard, if you will. NHRA already has multi-year deals with ESPN to televise the 23 or so National events. Millions of viewers mean millions of potential customers. I've seen plenty of ads on ESPN for the XO-1 during NHRA races. Why would Traxxas sponsor anything RC event related unless there was TV coverage?

Without TV coverage, they would be advertising to their own market. Not much chance of growing the market that way. Also, we have close to zero spectators in RC. How can we get RC races some television exposure? I mean, they televise a damned spelling bee on ESPN, why not a highlight of the ROAR Nationals? Motorama? Vegas? The Snowbirds? That might drum up a little interest.

The tracks and NHRA promote and run all of the events, not the racers themselves. The NHRA posts the results, and tabulates the points after events, not the track owners (or racers). But those are for National level events. Plenty of drag strips have local points series, but not many of them earn points in the NHRA.
smaller racing series - like the midwest grand slam - do the same calculations for the events they run/are responsible for.

what i think we really need is for a stationing body to step up. or maybe we could just start ranking racers ourselves -- if we really think its necessary. it would probably be easy to get the top 25 done w/in different classes by just looking at finish order.

it just really takes a little elbow grease. syndrome did a great job at: http://rcprogear.com

maybe we could make a web site like 'hot or not' -- but have it be RC success or failure -- or maybe just good or not. in which you show to racers, their most recent results, and you let random folks decide who is better for a given class/car type. that would probably be the fairest thing right now....
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:32 PM   #192
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Without TV coverage, they would be advertising to their own market. Not much chance of growing the market that way. Also, we have close to zero spectators in RC. How can we get RC races some television exposure? I mean, they televise a damned spelling bee on ESPN, why not a highlight of the ROAR Nationals? Motorama? Vegas? The Snowbirds? That might drum up a little interest.
I don't know that they would be advertising to their own market. How many Traxxas cars at Vegas this year? None. that's how many. So I don't know that you could call it their market. It's their industry, but we are not the market, not exactly.

My personal opinion is that even when they (Traxxas) started the market (short course trucks, the Slash). We all made it "better", demanded more high performance race vehicles, and Bammo, now very little actual Slash racing at the tracks. In a scenario where we could have gotten Traxxas (just an example, could be any of the companys) to get on board because there WAS legitimate value in it at that time. Nope, we told them there stuff wasn't good enough so they took the big bat and swung it at the NHRA, and the various full size series events. They are making sure, that they don't need us to race their cars. We, as racers, can't be trusted to make decent decisions for them, so they are making the decisions for themselves. Just my opinion.

We have zero spectators in RC because we are lazy and selfish. (and I don't mean that to sound negative, it's more descriptive). When we were out in public, in the parking lots, racing wherever you could set up a track, it was better, as people saw us. People looking for something to do, saw US!!! But that takes time and organization to set up a track like that, and it gets old as usually it's the same 3-4 people in any club, thanklessly doing all the work. Even our own track here at Stormer Hobbies.... go ahead and guess who puts in the majority of the time working on our track... yea, that would be me. 95% of the work on our track is done by me personally. I call it my "garden". :P But I enjoy the work, and it puts a smile on my face to see people enjoy it. Not everybody enjoys it that way. As time went on, we all thought, "you know what would be cool? If we had our own full time dedicated track". Setup all the time, not dependent on the weather, not as much setup and tear down... etc. Which of course is usually an abandoned old warehouse in the middle of nowhere. Now, we're racing in front of ourselves.

It's not about expense either. I've grown weary over the years explaining to people that having a $200 RTR car is NOT going to help get warm bodys to the track. It's not about the expense, or there would be no logical way to explain a local motocross event with 400+ entrys with trailers full of $7000 bikes, and the local RC event, 12-15 guys...

#1 thing we gotta do is stop hiding. Our guys here at Stormer Hobbies are skipping out on going to the ROAR nats in Texas, so we can instead attend an RC car race at a Massive car show in Minneapolis. One of those races will be better for the sport than the other. I didn't say more important, I said better for the sport and it's growth. I'll support a car show race every time. Even if there was no timing system. It's that important.

You want a national points system with sponsors and money and TV time? We gotta stop hiding. Nobody is going to give $$$$ in support to a room with 90 guys in it hiding from the public with no spectators.

Even the movie "carpet racers". Loved it. Appreciate the time it took and somebody to do the HUGE amount of work. To much whining from the racers for my taste. Who wants to hang out with dudes that whine or look bitter? BUT, drama sells, I get it.... Gets viewers, but I don't know that it attracts anybody.

Just like the show "goldrush" on TV. I watch it for the Drama... I have ZERO desire to go gold mining based on the crap they have to put up with.

Don't even start me on what it takes to be on TV, I can go on for hours about it with years of first hand experience. It would probably be great for the industry, I can all but guarantee you that 90% of you would NOT be happy with the actual outcome as it pertains to you personally. Welcome to Pandora's box. And it says, "you can be on TV" on the outside of it.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:09 AM   #193
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I thought Id dig this back up after seeing some of the numbers from the Snowbird Nationals this past weekend.

Outside of coming up with the right database (I have gotten pretty handy with Excel and am hoping to learn my way through Access at some point), maybe if an experiment can be had where three races or so (outside of ROAR Nationals) could be made into some sort of national points series and just experiment for a year or two and see how that would work...maybe starting with an alpha test with one or two classes (like say World GT and Touring 17.5), then adding a couple more for a beta test before going with a full national system with a bunch of classes
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:34 AM   #194
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Bob, looking forward to having you guys come up to Duluth for the world of wheels. Racing in front of a crowd is a blast, my bodies usually get a little more effort for that race than most. Watching and listing to the young kids yell and cheer in the lower classes, (as crashing is more common) is just plain cool.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:52 PM   #195
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maybe starting with an alpha test with one or two classes (like say World GT and Touring 17.5), then adding a couple more for a beta test before going with a full national system with a bunch of classes
If one wanted to test a system I would think you would be out for as wide a range of data possible within as few categories that are relevent. If a test were done for two classes, there are truly only two that matter.

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