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Old 01-14-2012, 06:33 PM   #136
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thought Id bump this back up and try to rekindle discussion about something like this happening eventually
My guess is nothing will happen considering this thread is 8 years old
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Old 01-14-2012, 07:00 PM   #137
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When I was working with NORRCA we looked into doing a National Points system, but we had a hard enough time getting tracks to send in race results to post in newsletters and on the web site. It would probably take a full time staff for ROAR to do the work to cover all the divisions (On-Road, OffRoad, etc) -
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Old 01-14-2012, 07:03 PM   #138
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When I was working with NORRCA we looked into doing a National Points system, but we had a hard enough time getting tracks to send in race results to post in newsletters and on the web site. It would probably take a full time staff for ROAR to do the work to cover all the divisions (On-Road, OffRoad, etc) -
that was yesterday technology! today it could be instant with mylaps.


just my 2 cents, but joe you know where i stodd on this
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:10 PM   #139
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My guess is nothing will happen considering this thread is 8 years old
the reason for that is that no one actually a) stepped up and actually put a plan into action and b) ignored folks like you and went ahead anyway.

that being said, I did some thinking today while I was driving to work to pick up my check (yes I got paid on a saturday...long story there) and came up with a little something

1. Racers can declare up to 3 classes to count for points at the beginning of the year depending on your discipline (asphalt onroad, carpet onroad or offroad).
2. Points will be calculated from the first of the month following the appropriate Nationals until 3 months prior to the next Nationals (to allow time for those who qualify to make necessary arrangements)
3. Races will be calculated on a "factor 5" scale starting at 25 points for the top 5 A main finishers (25 for first, 20 for second, 15 for third, 10 for 4th, 5 for 5th, 4 for 6th, 3 for 7th, 2 for 8th and 1 each for 9th and 10th).
4. A mains must have 50%+1 drivers to count for points (e.g. if the max is 10 cars for a main, minimum number for points is 6)
5. Each racer's best 10 finishes count toward their point total (max score 250 points)
6. Top 5 in each region in each class qualify for nationals plus next five in points serve as "alternates"
7. Lower mains will score on a 10 point scale (10 for first, 9 for second, 8 for third, etc.) but must also meet the 50%+1 rule.

Thats all I could come up with but Im sure this will be added to and tweaked as I think about it
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:22 AM   #140
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This would be awesome. And also I never understood why whoever wins this week is the national champion ..then a week later a new national champion .. just weird when compared to anything else. So who do we contact and why couldn't more people email at one time to to show that there's a desire for it? Or else.. maybe a new ORG .. could happen... like RC pro..
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:22 AM   #141
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Im about to hop in the shower but here is an example of what Im talking about:

Beginning of the year, Track A has "signup weekend" or something and all the racers come in, and declare their points classes for say...carpet onroad (Say Racer A declares...17.5 TC, World GT and 13.5 12th scale), then each race meeting where those classes are offered (and they have at least 50%+1 of a full main), they will get points for those classes. By having the 50%+1 standard, it keeps there from being 47 classes and only three guys in each class at a given track. Say the Carpet Onroad Nationals were in March. From April-December, racers across the country race each week at their tracks and collect points. At the end of the race meeting, points are awarded for each class and the results are emailed to a person (or group of people) who will enter it into a spreadsheet (which Im working on in between papers for grad school). following the last Sunday of December, racing is "closed" and final points are tabulated.

here are the classes I was thinking of (These are the ones I can reckon are most often run across the country) since Im using carpet onroad as an example (Im not specifying boosted, non-boosted, etc. that will be up to the governing body whether its ROAR or whoever):

TC
17.5
13.5
Modified
Vintage Trans-Am (25.5)

Pan Car
12th Scale
17.5
13.5
Modified

10th Scale
World GT (13.5)


If you take top 5 in each of the 12 regions thats 60 racers. Do some basic math and you have a pretty big nationals list. Again this is only an example as a lot of this can and probably will be tweaked in my head as time goes along this year (when Im not busy working on my masters degree)
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:48 AM   #142
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Here are my 2 cents on the subject.

This has been the same argument in SCCA Club Racing for past decade. Why don't we have a points based national championship? Why is the person who performs the best over a given week at a single track crowned as the national champion?

None of pro or semi-pro fullsize car racing series do things this way. Series like ALMS, Grand-Am Rolex/Conti Tire, World Challenge... Even the lesser semi-pro series like MX5 Cup and Viper Challenge, etc base the yearly champion on a best X of Y race points total.

So why can't SCCA Club do the same? And, in turn, why couldnt ROAR/whoever do the same for club RC racing? I think the answer for both boils down to money, time, and commitment. Look at the European Touring Series for instance. This is generally considered a "Pro" level RC series. And they base the overall championship on a points system... just like fullsize "Pro" car racing. But on the grassroots level, it is very hard to get people to commit to traveling and competing in more than a couple out of state races a year. And, IMO, it is impossible to crown a National Champion simply by tallying up everyone's wins from their own region. Obviously some regions are thick with talent... and some aren't.

I believe that the only way you could truly do a points base championship would be by hosting a single "National" race in each region over the course of a season. This race would be open to everyone in the country... and attendance would pretty much be required if you want to compete for a national championship. Then the best X out of Y finishes can determine the champion... but getting more than a couple people in each class to race more than just their home races (or maybe the close nearby states), is next to impossible IMO.

Regarding the comments about "qualifying" for a National race... that is an interesting proposal. SCCA Club has done this for a very long time. In order to race at the Runoffs, you must be in the top 30% in your region in the class you are racing. Over the past few years, they have reduced the requirements to qualifying in hopes of increasing attendance at the Runoffs. In fact, now, as long as you show up and race and finish at least 4 Nationals, you are pretty much qualified for the Runoffs.

Something else to consider is copying SCCA's dual championship structure. SCCA offers two "National Championships" each year in each given class. One is a points based Championship... the winner of this is the racer with the highest points total from the "National" races(not just ordinary regional races). In order to win the points based championship, you are required to travel to a number of out of state races. Then there is the "Runoffs Championship", which is crowned to the winner of the class at the Runoffs each year. Single race, single winner, one National Champion. The most prestigious of the two crowns is by far and away the Runoffs Championship... and the reason is simple. This is grassroots club racing. Few have the means or time to travel to more than a few out of state races... this basically means that the person with the deepest pockets is guaranteed a high placing finish in the points based championship.

On the other hand, Pro series... both fullsize and RC series like the ETS... these series work well with a points based championship because there are paid pros racing. The series can get lots of pro drivers to commit to running the full season and competing for the championship. This makes the championship a worthy pursuit... not just a title handed out to the person who traveled to the most races.

IMO, a points based championship is a VERY hard sell at the grassroots level... for any type of national racing.
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:04 AM   #143
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Just get all of the "big" races to fall under one National organization, ROAR or an equivalent, and it would be much easier to organize. Idon't think that this would be an easy task.

Last edited by T Tom; 01-15-2012 at 09:06 AM. Reason: correct spelling
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:13 AM   #144
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Here are my 2 cents on the subject.

This has been the same argument in SCCA Club Racing for past decade. Why don't we have a points based national championship? Why is the person who performs the best over a given week at a single track crowned as the national champion?

None of pro or semi-pro fullsize car racing series do things this way. Series like ALMS, Grand-Am Rolex/Conti Tire, World Challenge... Even the lesser semi-pro series like MX5 Cup and Viper Challenge, etc base the yearly champion on a best X of Y race points total.

So why can't SCCA Club do the same? And, in turn, why couldnt ROAR/whoever do the same for club RC racing? I think the answer for both boils down to money, time, and commitment. Look at the European Touring Series for instance. This is generally considered a "Pro" level RC series. And they base the overall championship on a points system... just like fullsize "Pro" car racing. But on the grassroots level, it is very hard to get people to commit to traveling and competing in more than a couple out of state races a year. And, IMO, it is impossible to crown a National Champion simply by tallying up everyone's wins from their own region. Obviously some regions are thick with talent... and some aren't.

I believe that the only way you could truly do a points base championship would be by hosting a single "National" race in each region over the course of a season. This race would be open to everyone in the country... and attendance would pretty much be required if you want to compete for a national championship. Then the best X out of Y finishes can determine the champion... but getting more than a couple people in each class to race more than just their home races (or maybe the close nearby states), is next to impossible IMO.

Regarding the comments about "qualifying" for a National race... that is an interesting proposal. SCCA Club has done this for a very long time. In order to race at the Runoffs, you must be in the top 30% in your region in the class you are racing. Over the past few years, they have reduced the requirements to qualifying in hopes of increasing attendance at the Runoffs. In fact, now, as long as you show up and race and finish at least 4 Nationals, you are pretty much qualified for the Runoffs.

Something else to consider is copying SCCA's dual championship structure. SCCA offers two "National Championships" each year in each given class. One is a points based Championship... the winner of this is the racer with the highest points total from the "National" races(not just ordinary regional races). In order to win the points based championship, you are required to travel to a number of out of state races. Then there is the "Runoffs Championship", which is crowned to the winner of the class at the Runoffs each year. Single race, single winner, one National Champion. The most prestigious of the two crowns is by far and away the Runoffs Championship... and the reason is simple. This is grassroots club racing. Few have the means or time to travel to more than a few out of state races... this basically means that the person with the deepest pockets is guaranteed a high placing finish in the points based championship.

On the other hand, Pro series... both fullsize and RC series like the ETS... these series work well with a points based championship because there are paid pros racing. The series can get lots of pro drivers to commit to running the full season and competing for the championship. This makes the championship a worthy pursuit... not just a title handed out to the person who traveled to the most races.

IMO, a points based championship is a VERY hard sell at the grassroots level... for any type of national racing.
I think you missed what I was trying to get at james...the regional points arent for crowning a national champion, they are for determining the racers who would qualify for nationals. Racers run at their own tracks, they can run at another track as long as the class they declared is run there (and has 50%+1 entries in that class for each meeting), but they dont have to go running all over their region. The SCCA dual championship structure on the C level is a nice idea though...as I said, this sort of thing will be tweaked and retweaked in my head and on paper throughout the course of the year
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:37 AM   #145
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Just get all of the "big" races to fall under one National organization, ROAR or an equivalent, and it would be much easier to organize. Idon't think that this would be an easy task.
100% Agreed.

In my opinion a national point system (as proposed to rank thousands of racers from club to pro) is nearly worthless and would serve as little more than a feel good system at best. Look, I'm a rookie club racer and am not willing to put in the time/effort/resources to be much more than that. In the whole grand scheme of things it doesn't much matter if I'm #3481 or #2065. If I'm not winning every main at the local track, I have plenty of work to do. The local track is the best gauge any club racer can get. Only when a racer no longer has good competition locally does he need to branch out and find it (putting in time/effort/resources). I've been doing this thing for less than one year and I already know where I would go if I were to ever get to that point (which I do not expect to).

However, I do believe that it would be very benefical to the sport if there was a real national touring series. A circuit of races in which everybody knows that all the big names will be attending and the best place to find the best talent in the country, bar none. If you think you have what it takes to be on "the list" and/or want to be on a list, this is where you would go.
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Old 01-15-2012, 11:54 AM   #146
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100% Agreed.

In my opinion a national point system (as proposed to rank thousands of racers from club to pro) is nearly worthless and would serve as little more than a feel good system at best. Look, I'm a rookie club racer and am not willing to put in the time/effort/resources to be much more than that. In the whole grand scheme of things it doesn't much matter if I'm #3481 or #2065. If I'm not winning every main at the local track, I have plenty of work to do. The local track is the best gauge any club racer can get. Only when a racer no longer has good competition locally does he need to branch out and find it (putting in time/effort/resources). I've been doing this thing for less than one year and I already know where I would go if I were to ever get to that point (which I do not expect to).

However, I do believe that it would be very benefical to the sport if there was a real national touring series. A circuit of races in which everybody knows that all the big names will be attending and the best place to find the best talent in the country, bar none. If you think you have what it takes to be on "the list" and/or want to be on a list, this is where you would go.
even if you go to a national .. murder all the factory guys. There's no points.. no nothing but the "champion ". Till they week and new "champion" is crowned .. that's just weird to me..
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:06 PM   #147
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The idea is awesome, and I applaud you for trying to get the pot stirring but there are just so many classes for different events and cross racing, it's almost impossible. Oval(dirt and carpet), All the multitude of on-road classes and off-road classes. It is a good idea, but a lot of people race multiple things, where would you even start? I mean, Cyrul has run everything under the moon at one time or another but doesn't race everything all at once. I know plenty of others who do the same. I guess, I just like the honor system as far as knowing what you should be racing and how you stack up against the rest. I am jumping head on into dirt oval sprint racing, and I will be racing Outlaw Sprint. Ass handed to me for awhile regardless of what I had accomplished in touring car? You betcha.
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:18 PM   #148
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It wouldn't have to be every class. Just the common we see at large events.
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:29 PM   #149
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even if you go to a national .. murder all the factory guys. There's no points.. no nothing but the "champion ". Till they week and new "champion" is crowned .. that's just weird to me..
Right. I don't get it either. Champion of what? one day? Congrats. Not that those guys couldn't be long season champions.

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All the multitude of on-road classes and off-road classes. It is a good idea, but a lot of people race multiple things, where would you even start?
"jack of all trades, master of none" - that's pretty much all I have to say about that. It's a double edged sword.
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:11 PM   #150
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It wouldn't have to be every class. Just the common we see at large events.
Thats about what I was going for as well. I dont want to have every single class in every single discipline (there are far too many as you noted Steve (how's everything in your life btw).

Really there were only three disciplines I wanted to focus on: carpet onroad, asphalt onroad and offroad. Also, my idea was more for the weekend warrior club racer types...Im sure it could be adapted for a national "pro" points series just as well though
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