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Old 10-16-2007, 09:27 PM   #5401
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Cool 13.5 STOCK?

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Originally Posted by fjm9898 View Post
i am not doing this to be funny or mean in anyway, i am just curious. is novak working on equalizing the brushless motors to the current brushed stockers? or has that battle been given up and we are just waiting for the brushed motors to be phased out? i ask because i would still love to see the two combined and there be illegitimacy to saying that they are "equal" we know they arent, brushless still have more low end and get out of the corners better. i would like to see some company step up and progress this farther. the splitting of the 13.5 and brushed classes is hurting the competitiveness of the racing.i dont like seeing 10 in one and 10 in the other when it should be 20 total and having a bmain rather then everyone getting a free ticket to the A

p.s. nice to meet you at nats. i hope you enjoyed your time up here in the NW.

- Frank
Where I race they combine the two and if I make the "A" it will be at the bottom of the "A". I'm not complaining it's not all about motor but I'd say the top 5 are all brushless and brushed motors are scattered after that. I did beat a brushless in the "B" but I might have had better driving skills.
ROAR needs to modify the brushed motor rules so they can compete with brushless. Maybe make stock motors 23 turn instead of 27t. This is what they do in the Far East! This would make it more even and then increase the fixed timing. Last allow 4 magnets in the can. Do all this and I'll run against brushless and have a fighting chance!
I'm all in favor of brushless, I have a brushless system but I like brushed also and stock class needs a more level field, in my opinion!
This may not be the right thread to voice my opinion but it's close enough!
Just my 2$
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:33 PM   #5402
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see i was not trying to start a debate but in fact just see what novak is up to.

but let me ask you this. why should something already approved change to meet something that isent. they is why i think the new tech should comply with the old. also quad magnets wont help. in both the binary and roar x you got more top end out of the motors. brushless have more low end, so quad mag would only widen the gap. unless there is more to them that hasnet been test because they arent legal.

but back to what i was asking, is novak working on something, or is it looked at as a lost cause? and we are just going to have to sit and wait until one completely takes over. because at the rate we are loosing on road racers i thin something should be done to bring us back together
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Old 10-16-2007, 10:12 PM   #5403
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Originally Posted by fjm9898 View Post
is novak working on something, or is it looked at as a lost cause?
I believe a more important thing for Novak to do is to lay out a roadmap that enables a club or set of clubs in a region to establish spec classes based on Novak brushless motors without the risk of the motors they've chosen going out of production in, say, the next year.

Brushless is wonderful but the up-front cost is higher so to justify that, you need greater protection against obsolescence. Competition being what it is we know that Novak will keep making their 13.5 motor (say) faster and faster. That's OK as long as the old specification of 13.5 remains available for long enough for racers to use them in enough races.

In the context of such a roadmap, a de-tuned 13.5 that's closer to a brushed stock might make sense. (I think you'd get pretty close today by specifying the use of bonded rotors and some restriction on gearing.) But without a roadmap that guarantees the continued availability the de-tuned 13.5, you'd have the same problem as I just outlined.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:29 PM   #5404
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Exclamation Brushed vs. brushless!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fjm9898 View Post
see i was not trying to start a debate but in fact just see what novak is up to.

but let me ask you this. why should something already approved change to meet something that isent. they is why i think the new tech should comply with the old. also quad magnets wont help. in both the binary and roar x you got more top end out of the motors. brushless have more low end, so quad mag would only widen the gap. unless there is more to them that hasnet been test because they arent legal.

but back to what i was asking, is novak working on something, or is it looked at as a lost cause? and we are just going to have to sit and wait until one completely takes over. because at the rate we are loosing on road racers i thin something should be done to bring us back together
Racers just want to go fast without the hassle of tuning and buying the lastest greatest batteries. This will actually level the playing field as far as spec racing using the same motor and batteries. The brushed motor is becoming obsolete, look at all the big mfg. Orion Trinity, Reedy. They all went brushless. They know if they don't come out with something the industry will leave them behind without a second thought. Racers will do the same go to where the least resistance of maximum performance is attainable.
Novak is right now at the head of the pack and they are setting the standard!
All the MFG. of brushless need to set standards and guidlines so this will level the field.
As for brushed, I don't know, there's still a market in RTR kits at a cheap price.
For racing competition brushed is history!
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:50 PM   #5405
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Hey Steve,

I want to put my brushless 4300 w/ a sintered rotor in my CRC carpetknife. What spur and pinion gear would you suggest I would run at Bending Corners. Thanks Bro.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:57 PM   #5406
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you should pay more attention to the pros. the brushed guys are still winning in mod... baker just won paved nats running brushed, checkpoint. so if bushed is history well i guess your right kinda right... they are still setting history, that obsolete stuff is still beating the new stuff. then you got hara and jilles switching to checkpoint running brushed. once again i didnt want to debate brushed vs brushless, buy brushless and/or lipo guys never let it go. this thread is for steve and the question was for him. if i wanted to debate this stuff i would of made another pointless thread in the onroad section. i wanted to know if there is a chance to still equalize the two or if hope is lost and this is how things are going to be until the full switch is made. i just dont like having to split up the classes. it kinda sucks having 13.5, stock, 10.5 and 19t with 5 or 6 guys in each, it wouldnt of made a difference 3 or 4 years ago when we had plenty of racers but things are different today.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:00 AM   #5407
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The IIC mod class was won with an Orion 3.5 brushless and 5 cells this year.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:03 AM   #5408
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yea i had to double check who won what classes, it was marc and temmu, paul with the king of the hill
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:53 AM   #5409
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gtr tuned-

4300 motor in 1/12th. I would start with a rollout over 2.10 and up towards 2.5 depending on track and traction. watch motor & esc temp.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:59 AM   #5410
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fjm-

I am not sure if I understand your question but hasn't Novak released the 17.5 or 18 crawler sintered to do exactly what you are asking.

I currently run a 17.5 in 1/12th and find it to be very similar if not the same as a co27.

Isn't this what you asked for with regards to Brushed vs. brushless.???
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:00 AM   #5411
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back to serious help......

Yo Steve whats for breakfest................
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:39 AM   #5412
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...and oh yeah,

I had cini-mini's and some orange juice!

If I missed anyone's questions or anything please let me know! It's bee a busy week around here!
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:40 AM   #5413
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WOW!

Lots of activity in here!

So, let's start at the begining... it looks like you guys have hit on the 1/12 gearing answers yourselves! Cookie's rollouts look acceptable to me. Always monitor the ESC and motor temps!!

Chicago: I will not be attending... someone has to stay home at the fort and keep everything running smoothly! Charlie, Bob, and a bunch of other very friendly and knowledgable people will be there though!

Now, to address the question about brushless/brushed equivalency:

We have striven for a long time to try to make "equivalent" motors for stock and spec racing and I think there are alot of factors that go into this whole debate. As technology changes and our knowledge of it grows what was once considered "equal" can now rather easily outpace what came before.

Obviously the 10.5 and 13.5 classes are pretty popular ... in some areas everyone has migrated to brushless... in others you have situations like you have described where everyone is split... instead of having a large group of racers you now have many small groups of racers.

We (and other manufactures) are currently working with ROAR to try to hammer out some rules/changes that will the best compromise that we can do.

There are many sides of this debate and to go into all of the factors would take far too long than I have in my spare time here at work

But, the simple answer is "Yes," we are working on making it so that the gap between brushed stock/19T and brushless stock/19T is smaller. I really don't see that going back to bonded rotors or limited gear ratios are really feasable for a solution...it would also require alot more scrutineering and that seems to be something that most tracks or people really don't want to do.

It sounds to me like there might be some agreeance on a slower wind motor such as a 15.5 or 17.5 motor with sintered rotor. While this might upset people who already have 13.5s or other motors I would recommend that you compare the cost and life span of a new brushless motor with that of the cost of the brushed motorS, brushes, and equipment you would have needed to get the same performance for the same amount of time with brushed stuff.
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:46 AM   #5414
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and oh yeah:

I had cini-minis and orange juice!

If I missed anyone's questions or comments please let me know... it's been a busy week !
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:48 AM   #5415
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thanks for your input steve, its great to hear that its still being worked on, one day we can all be happy
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