630LikesOld TC Cars - Still Racing Competitively
10-22-2016, 05:13 AM
#557
Tech Fanatic
Hey gigaplex.
Ha Ha!. . .Thanks for your reply about the HPI Pro 4. You made me think about my 6-sell Ni-mh battery chassis. I thought about them as being old; but not OLD. I still race them and they can keep up with the newer and the latest chassis on the track.
Besides I like Ni-mh batteries.
Take Care
Ha Ha!. . .Thanks for your reply about the HPI Pro 4. You made me think about my 6-sell Ni-mh battery chassis. I thought about them as being old; but not OLD. I still race them and they can keep up with the newer and the latest chassis on the track.
Besides I like Ni-mh batteries.
Take Care
10-22-2016, 10:29 AM
#558
The old smc energ4600 had what it took to compete with lipo batteries, even today's overhyped(1000000C) lipos... The lipos are really 35C to 40C max anyway, when tested in on a Giles ESR meter(Analysis Version)...
I'll stick to my first TP 3300 packs(charged at 12A/75*F or warmer), and won't fall for the battery of the week hype: run what you already have....
I'll stick to my first TP 3300 packs(charged at 12A/75*F or warmer), and won't fall for the battery of the week hype: run what you already have....
Last edited by bertrandsv87; 10-22-2016 at 10:48 AM.
10-22-2016, 05:26 PM
#560
Rebuilding for 17.5T racing 
10-22-2016, 09:40 PM
#562
Then I would assume you never used a good nimh energ4600 with the current crop of 17.5t motors... Also, if you add several of those supercapacitors inline with the nimh , the voltage drop will be almost eliminated, and when you consider that a fully charged nimh can get up to 8.8volts or higher, the lipo might lose the battle at the low amp loads seen in stock racing, as long as the total weight of your car+nimh is 1350grams... Yeah the nimh does not have the crazy 7500mah capacity, but you won't even need 2000mah for a 6minute run...
I would run a energ4600 nimh today if I had one , but they are impossible to find, and my car would need to weigh around 900gram without a battery, which is very hard to achieve in any touring car...
Lipo offers many advantages over nimh like lightweight, more energy density, lower internal resistance, and you can run them all day with no fade, but when both types are operating at their peak with all else being equal, the energ4600 nimh is very competitive .....
I would run a energ4600 nimh today if I had one , but they are impossible to find, and my car would need to weigh around 900gram without a battery, which is very hard to achieve in any touring car...
Lipo offers many advantages over nimh like lightweight, more energy density, lower internal resistance, and you can run them all day with no fade, but when both types are operating at their peak with all else being equal, the energ4600 nimh is very competitive .....
Last edited by bertrandsv87; 10-22-2016 at 09:59 PM.
10-23-2016, 04:32 AM
#564
Tech Fanatic
Thanks for all the deep Ni-mh battery info(bertrandsv87).
I still run the Orion 4200 V-Max Ni-mh batteries in my Pro 4 and Evo 5 Chassis and they run alright. I charge them up to 8.75v. I had them since 2013. I ran them 20 times each(each pack).
Where can I get some good Orion Ni-mh packs?
I still run the Orion 4200 V-Max Ni-mh batteries in my Pro 4 and Evo 5 Chassis and they run alright. I charge them up to 8.75v. I had them since 2013. I ran them 20 times each(each pack).
Where can I get some good Orion Ni-mh packs?
10-23-2016, 04:44 AM
#565
You can still buy competitive NiMh from battery suppliers in sub-c size, but you have to make your own packs and perhaps you have to buy quite a few cells if you want to select and pair (match) them.
I have recently bought NiCd cells for an old tape player and to my surprise I found they were a pretty good match, so you might be lucky.
You do need to make sure you by the SCR version, because they're the cells you can fast charge, the others will just be destroyed if you do.
I think the brands available were Panasonic and Sanyo (which were the best in the business anyway).
Prices should be quite attractive.
I have recently bought NiCd cells for an old tape player and to my surprise I found they were a pretty good match, so you might be lucky.
You do need to make sure you by the SCR version, because they're the cells you can fast charge, the others will just be destroyed if you do.
I think the brands available were Panasonic and Sanyo (which were the best in the business anyway).
Prices should be quite attractive.
10-23-2016, 08:11 AM
#566
Tech Rookie
@ rccartips,
Nice Tamiya 414M!!
What electronics are you going to use?
I am running a 414
Nice Tamiya 414M!!
What electronics are you going to use?
I am running a 414
10-23-2016, 10:05 AM
#567
I still have my first old(since 2004) 3000mah radioshack nimh battery working fine today in my ntc3 bump box. My first maxxamps lipos(2009) bit the dust around 2011, and they were very weak compared to my thunderpower lipo packs.
I only got to use nimh packs from iB 3800mah to iB 4200mah but only tested the smc energ4600 cells once. They were very impressive at a time when my tc4 weighed over 1700grams: imagine what they can do in the current 1350gram tc's at 8.75volts or more if you discharge with an individual cell discharger(team wave), and charge fully with an individual cell charger (Spintec) at 7amps...wow...
I only got to use nimh packs from iB 3800mah to iB 4200mah but only tested the smc energ4600 cells once. They were very impressive at a time when my tc4 weighed over 1700grams: imagine what they can do in the current 1350gram tc's at 8.75volts or more if you discharge with an individual cell discharger(team wave), and charge fully with an individual cell charger (Spintec) at 7amps...wow...
Thanks for all the deep Ni-mh battery info(bertrandsv87).
I still run the Orion 4200 V-Max Ni-mh batteries in my Pro 4 and Evo 5 Chassis and they run alright. I charge them up to 8.75v. I had them since 2013. I ran them 20 times each(each pack).
Where can I get some good Orion Ni-mh packs?
I still run the Orion 4200 V-Max Ni-mh batteries in my Pro 4 and Evo 5 Chassis and they run alright. I charge them up to 8.75v. I had them since 2013. I ran them 20 times each(each pack).
Where can I get some good Orion Ni-mh packs?
10-23-2016, 11:25 AM
#568
Bert may be trolling us about batteries, but I have to post the following for people who never experienced racing with round cell batteries.
----------
Ni-Cad and NiHm batteries are a big pain to race with when compared to Lipo batteries, I would never go back.
Not only did you have to build them, but you better be good at soldering or you could easily ruin one or more of the cells. Batteries don't like high heat applied to them for extended amounts of time. If you were sloppy at soldering, you could accidentally cover the vent holes in a battery. This could be a dangerous situation if a battery was over-charged and did lead to batteries exploding at r/c events. Of course you could buy pre-built batteries, but expect to pay a premium on race batteries.
Maintaining those old batteries for racing was also a pain. While there were differing opinions on the value of balance charging/discharging Ni-Cad or NiHm, individual cells in fact did charge/discharge at different rates. With Lipo most of us only have to worry about 2 cells, but in touring you had to worry about 6. All it took was for 1 weak cell in your $100+ six cell pack to ruin the performance.
Also I don't miss the expense of having to own multiple packs to race a single car on any given race day. Regardless of what anyone might say after this post, you had to have at least 3 batteries for racing if you wanted to be competitive. You HAD to let batteries cool down between charging (unless you wanted to shorten their life). And regardless of how good those old batteries may have been when new, their performance WOULD drop off noticeably after a few months of racing. You had to replace batteries frequently if you wanted to stay at the top of the field. It wasn't uncommon for people racing 6-cell classes to spend $600 or more just on batteries each year if they wanted to be competitive.
Oh let's not forget the fact that unless you had access to the best/most expensive batteries that it could affect the performance of the car between different packs. You also had to deal with the fact that the voltage drop off in the Ni-cads/NiHm batteries was fairly high and could also affect the performance. Often you had to be prepared for a much faster car at the beginning of a run that might be harder to drive. You also needed to make sure you knew which was your best battery
It doesn't matter if NiHm batteries are theoretically better of not. In the racing that we typically do, Lipo batteries are a better option for the majority of people in this hobby.
- They are typically cheaper
- You only need one per car
- You don't need to wait to re-charge them
- They can be recharged more times before they start to lose performance
- Their voltage/discharge curve is more linear, which makes setting up/driving a car easier
- They are easier to balance and store.
----------
Ni-Cad and NiHm batteries are a big pain to race with when compared to Lipo batteries, I would never go back.
Not only did you have to build them, but you better be good at soldering or you could easily ruin one or more of the cells. Batteries don't like high heat applied to them for extended amounts of time. If you were sloppy at soldering, you could accidentally cover the vent holes in a battery. This could be a dangerous situation if a battery was over-charged and did lead to batteries exploding at r/c events. Of course you could buy pre-built batteries, but expect to pay a premium on race batteries.
Maintaining those old batteries for racing was also a pain. While there were differing opinions on the value of balance charging/discharging Ni-Cad or NiHm, individual cells in fact did charge/discharge at different rates. With Lipo most of us only have to worry about 2 cells, but in touring you had to worry about 6. All it took was for 1 weak cell in your $100+ six cell pack to ruin the performance.
Also I don't miss the expense of having to own multiple packs to race a single car on any given race day. Regardless of what anyone might say after this post, you had to have at least 3 batteries for racing if you wanted to be competitive. You HAD to let batteries cool down between charging (unless you wanted to shorten their life). And regardless of how good those old batteries may have been when new, their performance WOULD drop off noticeably after a few months of racing. You had to replace batteries frequently if you wanted to stay at the top of the field. It wasn't uncommon for people racing 6-cell classes to spend $600 or more just on batteries each year if they wanted to be competitive.
Oh let's not forget the fact that unless you had access to the best/most expensive batteries that it could affect the performance of the car between different packs. You also had to deal with the fact that the voltage drop off in the Ni-cads/NiHm batteries was fairly high and could also affect the performance. Often you had to be prepared for a much faster car at the beginning of a run that might be harder to drive. You also needed to make sure you knew which was your best battery
It doesn't matter if NiHm batteries are theoretically better of not. In the racing that we typically do, Lipo batteries are a better option for the majority of people in this hobby.
- They are typically cheaper
- You only need one per car
- You don't need to wait to re-charge them
- They can be recharged more times before they start to lose performance
- Their voltage/discharge curve is more linear, which makes setting up/driving a car easier
- They are easier to balance and store.
10-23-2016, 11:33 AM
#569
Bert may be trolling us about batteries, but I have to post the following for people who never experienced racing with round cell batteries.
----------
Ni-Cad and NiHm batteries are a big pain to race with when compared to Lipo batteries, I would never go back.
Not only did you have to build them, but you better be good at soldering or you could easily ruin one or more of the cells. Batteries don't like high heat applied to them for extended amounts of time. If you were sloppy at soldering, you could accidentally cover the vent holes in a battery. This could be a dangerous situation if a battery was over-charged and did lead to batteries exploding at r/c events. Of course you could buy pre-built batteries, but expect to pay a premium on race batteries.
Maintaining those old batteries for racing was also a pain. While there were differing opinions on the value of balance charging/discharging Ni-Cad or NiHm, individual cells in fact did charge/discharge at different rates. With Lipo most of us only have to worry about 2 cells, but in touring you had to worry about 6. All it took was for 1 weak cell in your $100+ six cell pack to ruin the performance.
Also I don't miss the expense of having to own multiple packs to race a single car on any given race day. Regardless of what anyone might say after this post, you had to have at least 3 batteries for racing if you wanted to be competitive. You HAD to let batteries cool down between charging (unless you wanted to shorten their life). And regardless of how good those old batteries may have been when new, their performance WOULD drop off noticeably after a few months of racing. You had to replace batteries frequently if you wanted to stay at the top of the field. It wasn't uncommon for people racing 6-cell classes to spend $600 or more just on batteries each year if they wanted to be competitive.
Oh let's not forget the fact that unless you had access to the best/most expensive batteries that it could affect the performance of the car between different packs. You also had to deal with the fact that the voltage drop off in the Ni-cads/NiHm batteries was fairly high and could also affect the performance. Often you had to be prepared for a much faster car at the beginning of a run that might be harder to drive. You also needed to make sure you knew which was your best battery
It doesn't matter if NiHm batteries are theoretically better of not. In the racing that we typically do, Lipo batteries are a better option for the majority of people in this hobby.
- They are typically cheaper
- You only need one per car
- You don't need to wait to re-charge them
- They can be recharged more times before they start to lose performance
- Their voltage/discharge curve is more linear, which makes setting up/driving a car easier
- They are easier to balance and store.
----------
Ni-Cad and NiHm batteries are a big pain to race with when compared to Lipo batteries, I would never go back.
Not only did you have to build them, but you better be good at soldering or you could easily ruin one or more of the cells. Batteries don't like high heat applied to them for extended amounts of time. If you were sloppy at soldering, you could accidentally cover the vent holes in a battery. This could be a dangerous situation if a battery was over-charged and did lead to batteries exploding at r/c events. Of course you could buy pre-built batteries, but expect to pay a premium on race batteries.
Maintaining those old batteries for racing was also a pain. While there were differing opinions on the value of balance charging/discharging Ni-Cad or NiHm, individual cells in fact did charge/discharge at different rates. With Lipo most of us only have to worry about 2 cells, but in touring you had to worry about 6. All it took was for 1 weak cell in your $100+ six cell pack to ruin the performance.
Also I don't miss the expense of having to own multiple packs to race a single car on any given race day. Regardless of what anyone might say after this post, you had to have at least 3 batteries for racing if you wanted to be competitive. You HAD to let batteries cool down between charging (unless you wanted to shorten their life). And regardless of how good those old batteries may have been when new, their performance WOULD drop off noticeably after a few months of racing. You had to replace batteries frequently if you wanted to stay at the top of the field. It wasn't uncommon for people racing 6-cell classes to spend $600 or more just on batteries each year if they wanted to be competitive.
Oh let's not forget the fact that unless you had access to the best/most expensive batteries that it could affect the performance of the car between different packs. You also had to deal with the fact that the voltage drop off in the Ni-cads/NiHm batteries was fairly high and could also affect the performance. Often you had to be prepared for a much faster car at the beginning of a run that might be harder to drive. You also needed to make sure you knew which was your best battery
It doesn't matter if NiHm batteries are theoretically better of not. In the racing that we typically do, Lipo batteries are a better option for the majority of people in this hobby.
- They are typically cheaper
- You only need one per car
- You don't need to wait to re-charge them
- They can be recharged more times before they start to lose performance
- Their voltage/discharge curve is more linear, which makes setting up/driving a car easier
- They are easier to balance and store.
10-23-2016, 12:30 PM
#570
Oh, there is something else that I forgot to include in my discussion of Ni-Cad/NiHm batteries.
Back in the round-cell days, there were far too many middle men involved with the sale and distribution of batteries which elevated the cost of EVERY battery. Whether it was the big R/C companies selling their super special ultimate battery or the battery matching companies promising the most precisely matched batteries on the planet, it ultimately cost everyone more money to race. Often the only real results we as racers saw were pretty stickers on our batteries and lighter wallets.
Thankfully when the standard r/c racing batteries switched to lipos, many new people became involved and most of the middle men no longer were needed. If we were still racing round cell batteries I would expect the top level race batteries would be priced around $150 USD or more. Imagine needing $400+ worth of batteries to race 1 car in 1 class a night that need to be replaced every 6 months or sooner when currently most people can get by with 1 $50 battery for several years.
Also another thing to consider is that the top end Ni-Cad/Nihm charger of the era was the Competition Electronics Turbo 35, which retailed for around $450 and DID NOT include a power supply (typically an additional $100) AND could only charge or discharge one battery at a time. It was fairly common to walk around at a big race and see the best racers with 2 or 3 Turbo 35 chargers in their pits (for multiple class charging). Many of the non-sponsored racers had several thousand dollars invested in just their chargers, power supplies, and batteries just to race 2 different classes.
So to close all of my discussion about Ni-Cad/Nihm racing, those batteries may or may not be better performing than lipo batteries. But everything else that was involved with racing with round cell batteries isn't better than using lipos batteries today.
One final though about batteries. Some of the same old players in the sale and distribution of batteries are still around today. They are still up to their same tricks about selling you the consumer the ultimate race batteries for top dollar. Don't fall for the hype. Do some research and buy cheaper so you can save some money for parts, entries fees, or consumable items (tires/bodies).
Back in the round-cell days, there were far too many middle men involved with the sale and distribution of batteries which elevated the cost of EVERY battery. Whether it was the big R/C companies selling their super special ultimate battery or the battery matching companies promising the most precisely matched batteries on the planet, it ultimately cost everyone more money to race. Often the only real results we as racers saw were pretty stickers on our batteries and lighter wallets.
Thankfully when the standard r/c racing batteries switched to lipos, many new people became involved and most of the middle men no longer were needed. If we were still racing round cell batteries I would expect the top level race batteries would be priced around $150 USD or more. Imagine needing $400+ worth of batteries to race 1 car in 1 class a night that need to be replaced every 6 months or sooner when currently most people can get by with 1 $50 battery for several years.
Also another thing to consider is that the top end Ni-Cad/Nihm charger of the era was the Competition Electronics Turbo 35, which retailed for around $450 and DID NOT include a power supply (typically an additional $100) AND could only charge or discharge one battery at a time. It was fairly common to walk around at a big race and see the best racers with 2 or 3 Turbo 35 chargers in their pits (for multiple class charging). Many of the non-sponsored racers had several thousand dollars invested in just their chargers, power supplies, and batteries just to race 2 different classes.
So to close all of my discussion about Ni-Cad/Nihm racing, those batteries may or may not be better performing than lipo batteries. But everything else that was involved with racing with round cell batteries isn't better than using lipos batteries today.
One final though about batteries. Some of the same old players in the sale and distribution of batteries are still around today. They are still up to their same tricks about selling you the consumer the ultimate race batteries for top dollar. Don't fall for the hype. Do some research and buy cheaper so you can save some money for parts, entries fees, or consumable items (tires/bodies).
