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Old 04-26-2011, 05:37 PM   #361
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I'm not sure what everyone is bleating on about tbh. Running non boost wrecks your motors faster cos you have to gear the nuts off them. Boost isn't hard to set up really is it? Once you have a setting down it works pretty much everywhere, you just adjust gearing like you would with blinky. Boost is just a bit progressive thats all, get over it, infact enjoy it.

Who really doesn't enjoy watching the car change up in to 2nd?

Just run whatever the local guys run and what your club supports, its all about the competition in the end. No-one likes to race an empty class.

Oh yea, and let people do as they want. I hate it when peeps try and force their own opinion onto everyone, we all pay our money, so we should take our own choice. I wouldn't try and get rid of a certain class that others clearly wanted to run just because it wasn't my thing. If I did nitro would be banned
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:46 PM   #362
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imo boost is still in its early stages,and its not that technology has gone to far but not far enough yet.
when we set a car up for a track it is usually a compromise.
if we ran square race tracks all we would need to setup for is 4 left or right hand corners and 4 straights.
this would make it very easy as all four corners are the same.
fortunately we don't run square race tracks,but tracks with multiple different corners. its impossible to set up a car to be perfect for every corner.
if its set perfect to get the most out of tight 180 corners it wont be perfect for big sweepers,so we need to compromise to an extent so it can driven well on all corners.
this applies to motor/esc settings as well. not so long ago we didn't have much choice but gearing,now we have they advantage not only of dynamic timing but they ability to adjust it to suit our needs.

imo this is were technology is behind or more correctly most of us have not caught up.
if we data logged our running on the track with a overlay of were the car is on the track we would get a much better picture on how to best set the esc boost/timing
we would then know exactly what rpm were doing at every corner and each straight,it would still be a compromise to some extent with multiple corners but give us a much better understanding of what rpm boost needs to start
how much we need etc.
for those having a hard time working out boost its not you don't know enough to adjust it to its optimum,you just don't have enough information to yet
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:50 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
Interesting that the core reason for even considering these product bans has not really been mentioned in this thread. If it was a real and current problem you would think it would have come up in this discussion. There have been a few issues, but they have all been dealt with quickly and proved the system works.

It is clear that NT has a place in RC racing. It is also clear that boost has a place. Seems obvious that having the choice is a good thing.

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Tekin Prez, why have you not considered separating the Blinky code from the Dynamic Timing code in your firmware?

I'm sure you've heard how easy is to switch profiles from the time you're tech'd to the time you get on the driver stand. It's published on your release notes:

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The user can now select from 5 preset Timing Profiles on the RS and RS PRO without a HotWire
RS and RS PRO
TP1 Spec Mode 0deg Boost (LED flashes when in neutral so Tech can easily verify mode)
TP2 15deg Boost, 5442 RPM to 20,000 RPM
TP3 25deg Boost, 5442 RPM to 20,000 RPM
TP4 35deg Boost, 5442 RPM to 20,000 RPM
TP5 45deg Boost, 5442 RPM to 20,000 RPM
C1 Custom settings using Hotwire
C2 Custom settings using Hotwire
Please consider splitting the code into two separate isolated firmware packages.
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:37 PM   #364
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[QUOTE=ozzy-crawl;imo this is were technology is behind or more correctly most of us have not caught up.
if we data logged our running on the track with a overlay of were the car is on the track we would get a much better picture on how to best set the esc boost/timing
we would then know exactly what rpm were doing at every corner and each straight,it would still be a compromise to some extent with multiple corners but give us a much better understanding of what rpm boost needs to start
how much we need etc.
for those having a hard time working out boost its not you don't know enough to adjust it to its optimum,you just don't have enough information to yet[/QUOTE]

Sounds great, though I seem to be having some issues getting to this level, given the handfull of hours I have on the odd sunday here and there to go have fun with my toy cars The compromise is called life (work, friends, ect). Lets just have classes that work based on track size/local demand/ ect. I'd rather run a motor/esc set up that doesn't need tweeking so much, thats just me. Some guys love the tweeking-factor, have a class for them. Not knocking it at all. Though sometimes I wonder, will it go beyond blue-tooth, will we need this just to go racing:



"yes yes, you see, the boost it is .0000000001th of a percent off the maximum performance on the 3rd lap, in the 5th corner. Temperatures are going up so we must recalculate what the GPS reading are telling us... also tire diameter has changed, we must re-write the profile"...

I kid, I kid.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:07 PM   #365
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Sean, go back and look at post #313. Then realize that 17.5 was identified by the motor manufactures to be the stock motor replacing the 27 turn and the idea that they were interested in slowing down the cars so new, unskilled drivers would have a place to get started were they wouldn't be overcome by technology or speed.
All fine and dandy, but that was decided YEARS ago with 4 cell. A 1/12th non boosted 17.5 1s on a track with any grip is pretty much full punch. Not my idea of fun. Now I know what you will say, "run mod". That is exactly what I would do for big races but on the local level, many tracks don't have the turnout to split it into two classes.

Boosted, while still slow is just fast enough to be fun to drive while still being slow enough that a newb should be able to get around the track quite easily. Also, my absolute turd of a blinky motor is good enough enough to win boosted. Win win to me.

As for complexity, if you race at my track and have a Tekin, come find me. I'll set you up and have you straight. I will also explain everything to you so you can know how to experiment on your own. Us 1/12th guys are good about that sort of thing.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:12 PM   #366
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See I have a problem with your speed issue. Was at Indy a couple weeks ago and was running 17.5 blinky and we were .6 seconds faster per lap then the 17.5 TC blinky with a 96+ foot straight on the track. 10.7 vs 11.3 and I don't see anybody complaining about the 17.5 TC speed on a track that size. So tell me why you think 17.5 blinky 12th scale is slow? The VTA 25.5 guys were turning 13.0 on the track now that was slow. Snowbirds about the same 12.1 and 12.2 for TC and 11.5 and 11.6 for 12th scale 17.5 blinky. Now 13.5 blinky is faster but does it need to be faster to have good competition. Why does everybody have the drag race fast as I can go mentality. Now maybe on an outdoor track with 160' straight does the upping of the blinky classes need to be applied. 13.5 tc and 13.5 12th but that is definitely track size dependent.
It's not lap time, it's feel. No punch off the corners, full throttle pretty much all the way around, boring. I did that in oval for years and don't really feel like going back to it.

Fortunately, my closest track loves boost and we did manage to get enough people together for some good mod racing last year so except for big races (which I doubt I will run if no boosted classes are included), I'll be fine.
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:25 AM   #367
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Foam cars are more "stuck" than Touring Cars on rubber tires. I can't speak for everyone but 1/12 1S 17.5 motor w foam tires is almost full throttle the entire track. When lifting from full throttle it is more timing than throttle control. So IMHO although the lap times are faster the skill set is different compared to 17.5 TC. So I think that people are saying they are too slow when they really should be saying they are too "stuck" or "planted" at 17.5 speeds, and therefore boring while others may enjoy the marathon mentality of focus on focusing for 8 minutes, strategy , the chess game. The marathon runner vs the sprinter, two different kinds of racing.
You're right, but isn't this missing a key point? In the days when there was no TC, tracks were smaller, and you couldn't pin a 12th car's throttle for a whole lap. Now TC is here, they couldn't run on a proper 12th track, so tracks are built to accommodate a TC, and 12th cars run on them. They are too big for 12th cars, so you run with the throttle pinned open in 17.5. In Mod, the track is a better size, so you run with throttle 'feel'.

If you put a 12th 17.5 car on a track designed for its size, handling and power, you wouldn't be pinned, and you would have to drive the car. We seem to keep forgetting that most 12th tracks we run on are designed for TC. Why wouldn't they be? Clubs and shops cannot stay open having two tracks, or having a 12th-only track!

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I am not trying to be a jerk...but is it for for people to drive around the track full pin for 8 minutes? That sounds horrible to me, and yes I have run 17.5 1/12th scale and to be honest I think your description is not that far off, I just wonder why people like it so much.
They like it because they can drive it! You are assuming that everyone has your skill, and they don't. How do you expect to get more drivers in if you push them straight to 13.5 or Mod? Driving a pan car is not easy, and 17.5 gives you a chance. Rather than moaning about it, go down to your local Club/Shop running 17.5, run it, and help the drivers get up to your standard. If they do, maybe they would all want to up the power!!

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Also, my absolute turd of a blinky motor is good enough enough to win boosted. Win win to me.
And that is the point, pure and simple. Boosted allows you to run any motor, as the timing-on-the-fly gives you the chance to make it efficient most of the time, whereas without boost it is only efficient at one time.

This whole non-boosted thing will come to a crashing stop when people discover we are back to motor-of-the-month, and you will need fresh cells most of the time to stay in touch. It is already apparent over here that our change to non-boosted 10.5 means most people will have to buy at least one new motor, and probably two. Also, as I found out last weekend, my 18-month-old SMC 5300 cells are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in the unboosted class, whereas they are fine in boosted.

I know what people think they want, but we haven't given boosted anything like the chance it needs, and we are all rushing headlong into unboosted without thinking through the main advantages of boosted - cels and motors last longer. You can't uninvent things, so once people realise that they rely less on cells and motors in boosted, the pendulum will swing the other way. I give it two years...
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:51 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by nf_ekt View Post
..."yes yes, you see, the boost it is .0000000001th of a percent off the maximum performance on the 3rd lap, in the 5th corner. Temperatures are going up so we must recalculate what the GPS reading are telling us... also tire diameter has changed, we must re-write the profile"...I kid, I kid.
All kidding aside, I began datalogging two seasons ago and found it to be very worthwhile. With temperature, RPM and throttle position I had no trouble keeping my motor "on boil". However, it was another $100 expense for the datalogger, on top of the laptop cost required by the ESC and datalogger, and it weighs a bit too much.

The average sportsman racer/weekend warrior probably shouldn't have to deal with all that complexity. I do believe, however, that there is a place in R/C for this level of race engineering. In fact, I believe it is the only plausible link we as R/C racers have to the world of professional racing in 1:1. A link we should exploit with colleges and trade schools that cater to the 1:1 industry.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:57 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
It's not lap time, it's feel. No punch off the corners, full throttle pretty much all the way around, boring. I did that in oval for years and don't really feel like going back to it.

Fortunately, my closest track loves boost and we did manage to get enough people together for some good mod racing last year so except for big races (which I doubt I will run if no boosted classes are included), I'll be fine.
+1 I completely agree. Driving a 1/12 at full throttle on the entire track isn't fun. It's a game of attrition to see who hits the fewest slow cars or barriers.

We set up all the adjustable timing ESCs to perform similarly and the results were lots of close and fast races. Even the newbies enjoyed the action and improved their driving skills because they had to learn how to control their throttles. They couldn't do that while running WOT.

Last edited by AreCee; 04-27-2011 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:32 AM   #370
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Also, as I found out last weekend, my 18-month-old SMC 5300 cells are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in the unboosted class, whereas they are fine in boosted.
Awesome, and completely accurate!

So we want to go "boostless" to simplify things right? It makes no difference. Rather than tuning speedo profiles, we'll be trying different motors, and gearing the life directly out of them to find the combo.

The soaring price of competitive TC's and the sour economy are what's hurt on-road. All the talk of the guys that came back because of "boostless", or left because of boosted is honestly, crap. Those who chose to leave, left because they didn't want to work at their hobby. Those who returned because of boostless will end up quitting again when the guys that beat them in boosted start running boostless and they realize they still can't hang with those that actually take the hobby seriously.

There are racers, and people that just wanna play with toy cars on a track. Players wanna dump their stuff in the trunk after a day at the track, and not pull it out again 'till the next track day. Racers are wrenching on their stuff through the week, trying to find a few more tenths. Boostless will not turn a player into a racer, so the problem remains...........
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:36 AM   #371
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N/B Novice Stock, Boosted Pro Stock.

And what was wrong with that?
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:52 AM   #372
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+1 I completely agree. Driving at full throttle on the entire track isn't fun. It's a game of attrition to see who hits the fewest slow cars or barriers.

We set up all the adjustable timing ESCs to perform similarly and the results were lots of close and fast races. Even the newbies enjoyed the action and improved their driving skills because they had to learn how to control their throttles. They couldn't do that while running WOT.
The most popular class at the track I frequent is 17.5 boosted. I've been racing in that class all winter, but around a month ago I decided to set up a second car to race in the 21.5 "VTA/GT2" class, just so I could get some more track time and not have to wait around most of the day for my next heat. I'm thinking about going back to just running 17.5 boosted though because in 21.5 blinky I can drive the entire track at WOT. I can get slightly faster lap times if I let off for a split second on 2 corners. It really is quite boring and just screws up my timing for the faster class, so I think I'll drop it. I can't imagine how painfully dull true 25.5 USVTA must be. It's good for some people to learn how to steer and drive the best lines, but it doesn't even require a precise setup. If you get the ride height close and the car tracking straight, you're pretty much good to go. I've had many people comment on how dialed my 21.5 blinky car looks, but I know the setup on it is garbage, it just doesn't matter very much when you're going that slow.

I've won several 21.5 blinky A-mains, but I feel no sense of accomplishment from it. I'm far more excited when I win a 17.5 super stock B-Main or simply make it to the A-main in that class.
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Old 04-27-2011, 11:12 AM   #373
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Getting rid of boost will bring back all the off-road guys that switched, to run on-road again.
True story
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Old 04-27-2011, 11:37 AM   #374
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Getting rid of boost will bring back all the off-road guys that switched, to run on-road again.
True story
actually story at my track I have had about 5 to 7 offroad guys come race onroad 17.5 NB with RDX and 007 cars that have sat on the shelf since the speed control wars the last 2 or 3 years. one guy is running a GTB and the other running a lrp comp TC sphere. they wanted to race but don't what to figure out gearing or what ESC setting work best for which track layouts. And I don't know about you but I know the lrp x12 is the best motor for boost and the duo3 or ballistic are both good for NB so choice is always good. now some of these guys jumped into TC 17.5 NB running competitive laps straight off the back. I have had 4 SPXs 3 black diamonds and 3 tekins in the last 3 year. they are still running a GTB from 4 years ago Non boosted and being in the game. We're talking club racing here. Now I run a lrp comp sphere 007 and it doesn't matter what speed control I use it's all about driver at this point. If I run boosted it's Tekin or nothing else. SSX, black diamond, GM, speed passion all suck to tekin in boosted class. Kudos to tekin for getting it right but still doesn't make sense. And for the people that say give it 2 years and boosted will be the only thing. Um it's been 2 or 3 years since it was ALL non-boosted and we are going back to non-boosted. I think boosted has had it's swing, and it fell off it.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:00 PM   #375
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Gotta love it when everyone loves to say, "I do this for the challenge!" and then when the challenge comes, nobody wants it because, "I can't understand it!" Boost isn't that hard to understand, nor is it hard to adjust. Its actually quite easy, and this is coming from a nitro junkie. Really shows how much people care for their own hobby really....
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