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Old 04-24-2011, 01:57 AM   #331
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Old 04-24-2011, 11:59 AM   #332
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I am no one but here are my .02 cents: The problem I see here is it is impossible to make everyone happy.
I agree with having a slower spec class for those who need it.
I also agree with a boosted class for those who need it.
I also agree with a mod class for those who need it.
What I am getting at is that the classes should be organized by the amount of racers wanting to run it. Plain and simple. Where I run I get the same lap times with a 17.5 boosted as a 10.5 blinky. We figure they are pretty much equal so we allow 10.5 blinky and 17.5 boosted to run together. It can be done due to the size of the track and the skill of the driver. Is it fair? Yes to those that can handle the speed. But no to those who think they can handle the speed.

Lets get to the point of this topic. What this hobby needs most, people are not willing to give. A-main drivers need to teach others to drive and setup their cars the right way, but this valuable experience and knowledge that they have accumulated by the sweat of their brow and their own frustration is impossible to pass on in a short time. This is difficult for those sponsored drivers to do because it takes up their R & D time and they are not paid to give up such valuable time. They also need to practice and try different things to stay fast and on top. The result is, rules change constantly to make the entry level driver think he is a racer. There is no motor, speedo or class that can replace the fact that you have to learn to drive before you can race. So this discussion will go on for generations because hobby shops cannot afford to pay an A-main driver to teach others what he does.

I am a decent racer, but I am always looking to learn more, and one thing I know is you do not get faster by racing in a class slower than what you are capable of, or racing in a class faster than what you are capable of. Until we have a sanctioning body that can oversee every club race and big race then the chaos continues.

I give the post above an A+. However, I don't fully agree with the final paragraph. I believe you can still learn when running slower speeds. It takes a desire to be so perfect with your setup and driving that a mistake on the track of more than 3 inches off the perfect line is unacceptable. This takes tremendous discipline. Once you master that, then you can graduate past that level speed. I do agree you will not learn much racing a speed you are not capable of. That is when you go back to what you know and increase your discipline to drive perfectly.

Regarding the sanctioning body thing, ROAR has been thrown under the bus for making efforts towards that. This is the reason the Regional Directors have become appathetic. And we elect those people. Sad, very sad.
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Old 04-24-2011, 01:14 PM   #333
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I predict the winner of the ESC wars will be the one that comes out in the most compact case, smallest cap, easiest to wire and most attractive overall ESC that is still competitive.
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Old 04-24-2011, 01:52 PM   #334
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I give the post above an A+. However, I don't fully agree with the final paragraph. I believe you can still learn when running slower speeds. It takes a desire to be so perfect with your setup and driving that a mistake on the track of more than 3 inches off the perfect line is unacceptable. This takes tremendous discipline. Once you master that, then you can graduate past that level speed. I do agree you will not learn much racing a speed you are not capable of. That is when you go back to what you know and increase your discipline to drive perfectly.

Regarding the sanctioning body thing, ROAR has been thrown under the bus for making efforts towards that. This is the reason the Regional Directors have become appathetic. And we elect those people. Sad, very sad.
pretty much agree with this, as awesome as it is to see the "greats" go at in mod, i would absolutely LOVE to see them all run 21.5 blinky, yea, thats a race right there.......uumm, I wonder. how much of a cash prize would it take to get them to do this as a side class at a big event.... thinking....
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:45 PM   #335
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pretty much agree with this, as awesome as it is to see the "greats" go at in mod, i would absolutely LOVE to see them all run 21.5 blinky, yea, thats a race right there.......uumm, I wonder. how much of a cash prize would it take to get them to do this as a side class at a big event.... thinking....

Sky this has been done, but it was the old days. The very first big race I went to was at Grand Rapids, MI in 1988. It was called the WinterChamps and the only electric onroad car was 1/12. There were around 250 in stock and about 220 in modified. Those were the only classes. And the lineup, especially in mod, was incredible. Joel Johnson, Doseck, Cliff Lett, Tony Niesinger, Big Jim Huffman, Scott Smith, Neil McCurdy, Blackstock, Steve Redecki, and so many more that I can not name them all. The invitational race was for most of those guys and the challenge was to take the motor and battery pack (it was 4 cell) from a DustBuster, put it in your car and race. The combination was slow on paper, but you should have seen those guys go at it. The crowd was on their feet for the entire race and the cheering could be heard all the way to Lansing. And the best part was those cats didn't care how fast they were going. They only cared to put on a show and beat the others with those constraints. Not the way it is now.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:20 PM   #336
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Must have been a real $$$ burden on those guys, having to buy so many individual dustbusters just to find the "good one"

On a more serious note, I would have loved to have seen that. Nice post, it puts some things in perspective.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:43 AM   #337
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They would never be 'famous racers' if that was their 'designated' class of choice, they were famous because they were at the pinnacle of their racing, not racing the slowest cars....
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:26 AM   #338
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Boost is hardly dead. The choice for the paved nats was no boost classes. That does not mean it has to be the only choice for all races. The idea of its complete demise is just in its infancy and really comes from a small group. No one here has the power to transform the entire market overnight.

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Its seems like people are too focused on National rules than on what ACTUALLY happens. When big races are organized there is always an onpouring of a certain question... What classes will be run? and soon following... What are the rules? The fact is, many big races (i.e. Vegas, Snowbirds, and most large regional races) have rules determined that are based on what will draw in the largest crowds and the best competition. As far as I know, the only races that guarantee what classes and rules are to be used are the ROAR Nats. Which races have better attendance? Which would most people likely say are more fun? No one race or organization will determine the national rules other than ROAR for the ROAR Nats only.

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Programmable escs (some requiring a laptop) adds complexity to the users. Took me months to grasp programmable escs, and even till now I'm learning.

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This comment is not directed at you in particular, I'm just lumping your opinion into what I've witnessed. I assume you've been racing for a while as have many people out there. New is always difficult but I've seen a lot of seasoned racers quit racing recently. It may be because they don't want to learn the new technology to be competitive as they once were. Brushed/round cells have been around since the advent of r/c and the seasoned vets had them figured out. Anything new that came out was just a better, faster version of what they had before. Brushless, lipo, and boost esc's are completely new for everyone and any prior knowledge is irrelevant to going fast. If they wanted to keep up they would have to work to figure out how to make the new tech faster than the other guy. When your prior success suddenly disappears it's frustrating. I don't think the current technology is limiting the entry of new racers, rather its forcing out the old who don't want to learn something new.

And to those who say they want to go nitro racing. Good luck. It takes just as long or longer to figure out the nature of that beast than it does to conquer a few sliders on a computer. A fellow racer in MN who is a software engineer constructed a program to break in a nitro engine automatically based on barometric pressure, engine temps, fuel consumption, and many other variables. Turns out it worked quite well but I don't believe he uses it anymore because while breaking in an engine you learn how it reacts to certain variables. The auto process cuts out that learning and it makes it extremely difficult to keep that engine running smoothly once breakin is complete.

I started racing nitro and in a year or two, I could keep any engine purring like a kitten. But it took practice. When I started 1/12, I got smoked for about a year before I figured out how to make one fast. But once I figured it out it was easy. The same goes for every class, you must learn everything about that class to truly master it.

There are two types of people, those who want to get better, and those who just want to run. The "just runners" will take years to figure out a certain setup (if they ever do) and will be perfectly happy running the same thing forever. The other group wants to get better and once they have a setup figured out, it gets boring to do the same thing over and over so they are anxious to get the latest and greatest so they can have something new to work at. Right now, the workers are winning and the runners are quiting.
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:34 AM   #339
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Here is what I want to know, all the support for blinky seems to be coming from the TC guys. Are there ANY 1/12th racers in favor of this? I mean 17.5 boosted is a pretty good starting point. They are slow enough to get around for the newb, with just enough speed to keep the experienced guy reasonably challenged. But blinky 17.5? Come on, I bet the dustbuster cars would smoke them.

Why can't we have both worlds, blinky for 2s, boosted for 1s?
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:50 AM   #340
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Here is what I want to know, all the support for blinky seems to be coming from the TC guys. Are there ANY 1/12th racers in favor of this? I mean 17.5 boosted is a pretty good starting point. They are slow enough to get around for the newb, with just enough speed to keep the experienced guy reasonably challenged. But blinky 17.5? Come on, I bet the dustbuster cars would smoke them.

Why can't we have both worlds, blinky for 2s, boosted for 1s?
I think your pretty spot-on. It's (blinky) much more relevant in terms of TC.
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:53 AM   #341
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Just wanted to point out that at my local carpet track this winter, 17.5 NR 1/12 was the most popular class. Guys seemed to be having fun and the fast guys were still fast....go figure.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:03 AM   #342
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I agree. On all but a tiny carpet track, 17.5 boosted 1/12 is almost full pull already. You only need to let up on corner entry to plant the front end. This goes back to the post I made about lap times in different classes. Sure its apples to oranges, but I still feel lap times are very closely related to the overall difficulty of getting a car around a track. It matters little if its high corner speed or high acceleration, fast is difficult. But if you slow a class to the point its full pull for an entire lap, thats just boring. Different classes need different rules. We can't hang onto the fact that 27t brushed was stock in both 6cell and 4cell classes when those were still around.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:08 AM   #343
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Here is what I want to know, all the support for blinky seems to be coming from the TC guys. Are there ANY 1/12th racers in favor of this? I mean 17.5 boosted is a pretty good starting point. They are slow enough to get around for the newb, with just enough speed to keep the experienced guy reasonably challenged. But blinky 17.5? Come on, I bet the dustbuster cars would smoke them.

Why can't we have both worlds, blinky for 2s, boosted for 1s?
As a 12th scale racer...I am split on the idea. I like the speed of the boost and even enjoy the tinkering a bit...but I also enjoy just being able to throw a motor in the car and go. I could go either way on this and be happy in 1/12th.
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:10 PM   #344
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Our club has maintained good attendance all season, and blinky classes are the heart of our program:

Stock TC: 17.5/blinky
Stock 1/12th: 13.5/blinky
Scale Spec: Silver can or 25.5/blinky

Those three classes never fail.

In my humble opinion it's the only way to go if onroad attendance is going to stabilize and start to build again.

13.5/blinky 1/12th is a brilliant class and could/should be the universal reference spec for the most ancient and honored discipline in the sport.
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:47 PM   #345
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I can see 13.5 blinky in 1/12th working. It's 17.5 blinky that I don't get. Even on a small track, 17.5 boosted is slow and punchless to me (though barely tolerable). Anything less seems like a waste of time to me. But hey, if a track can get a good crowd for it, have at it. Just doesn't seem like something worth competing for a National title to me.
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