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Old 04-21-2011, 10:47 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by peter_robinson View Post
They would and do... There is a new iPhone every year. People stand inline for days to get them and there are never enough. They do this because of new software and features...
You're partly catching what I'm saying...I'm saying for a simple 3.0 to 3.1 software NO HARDWARE update.

I'm aware that people can and often do buy the latest and greatest mousetrap. But would they if all it included was just a simple new software feature, or bug fix? No.
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:13 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy View Post
In my opinion, a great super stock class is a boosted version of stock. So 17.5 no timing, 17.5 boosted. Done. All anyone usually wants out of super stock is to go a bit faster than stock, somewhere halfway between it and full modified. It's a quick and easy way to allow someone to run both classes via the quick change of a speedo setting, rather than carrying around multiple motors.
The comment in bold is as true as it can be, the rest is a mixed bag, I personally enjoyed boost, but saw plenty of people just not able to get their heads around it, kind of a shame really.

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Originally Posted by myan_gsr View Post
Some people cant handle full on modified racing for whatever reason eg. cost, speed so why place them into classes they dont feel comfortable with is not right.

Is boost dead, yes but I for one don't think it should be.
Agreed, and yes also on the second, it's dead but I'm sad to see such a clever bit of tech die off like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy-crawl View Post
this doesnt happen with on-road,person turns up with some thing different
they get told "yea you can run that chassis but you need to go buy another $150-$300 esc/motor to race"

thats why on-road is dying to many rules at club days
Yeah, it's rough way to start, but there can be some grief with letting people run anything, with the worry being it sets a trend to run anything, at some point you do need a harder line on rules, though when/where you draw that line within a club is a tough call.
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Old 04-22-2011, 02:29 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
Yeah, it's rough way to start, but there can be some grief with letting people run anything, with the worry being it sets a trend to run anything, at some point you do need a harder line on rules, though when/where you draw that line within a club is a tough call.
yes thats true but unless they have never run before and turn up with a 3.5t on boost with no idea how to drive,they should be allowed in the lowest class
eg 21.5 or vta etc

as some one else pointed out how many classes need to cater for new or slow races.
local racing has
21.5 no boost
17.5 no boost
mod

there is a huge gap between 17.5 non boost and mod
imo 17.5 should have some leeway,not a beginners class or full out mod
allow 17.5 boost or not,give guys the chance from stepping up from 21.5 to get used to a faster car but no boost,as they progress they can starting working on how to setup a boosted esc.
those that are doing well with 17.5 boost can then look at jumping to mod if desired with out such a big gap.
but there will always be the ones who stay in 21.5 or 17.5 because they always win and collect a trophy that they may never get going up a class
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:21 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by ozzy-crawl View Post
21.5 no boost
17.5 no boost
mod
I sat back and saw two strong agendas with what was happening late last year, those who wanted everything to slow down, and those who wanted to push as many into mod as possible, in common with both crews seemed to be a strong dislike of technology, all others I think got shafted just a bit, suffering from being a third middle ground sort of crew.

In the mean time though I'll just kick back and keep running 10.5T at Brendale, it keeps me amused and happy for now, and it's not like I have the gear for anything else, and we let just about anyone rock up with anything on a Friday night here.
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:48 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
Certainly there isn't anything wrong with blinky mode, but does *every* non-Mod class need to use it? How many beginner classes does on-road need? ROAR came up with Sportsman (21.5 blinky). Shouldn't that be sufficient for the beginner class? Why do we need blinky mode in 1s pan car classes? I've heard that WGT will be going to blinky mode. Is this true, or a rumor?

As far as a Slash for on-road, HPI is close with their Flux 2 car, but then they stuck a motor in it that isn't legal for any existing class. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Sportsman and USVTA to be the same class?

EA - Who on the ROAR ExComm actually races? Who on it races electric on-road?
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This was copied from teh ROAR site and comments added.

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Old 04-22-2011, 06:01 AM   #276
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NEW/JUST STARTING
There are many options for new/just starting to r/c. From the RTR kits, budget ESC combo packs to high turn/low speed BL. There doesn't seem too many barriers for equipment availability - online or LHS. And seemingly those folks WILL NEVER make it to competitive racing. But they will one day want to go fast. Work or stand in a hobby shop one day and listen to the customers, surely someone will come in a say they want to go faster.

The first steps to 'going faster' is not much further away than tweaking settings on an ESC. Or at least used to be.

RANT
Software provides the flexibility get more out of what you have. Years ago we complained about having R/C electronics that weren't keeping up with other consumer electronics - in either updatability or quality/price. Companies adapted quickly and found either the expertise or engineering talent to deliver a new class of products for r/c.

The gains did improve product - albeit the advancements went much faster beyond some parts of the hobby. The customers that used these 'new' configurable products had to get smart quick and they did. Sure the newbies have a learning curve - but this is no different than many other 'hobbies'.

NO BOOST?

Though I haven't spoken to Bob or Jim in a long time - No Boost sounds much easier - no more time spent evaluating throttle algorithms, no writing advanced ESC software, no building consumer application software - sounds like a good way to cost-reduce products!

<insert sarcasm here>
That is not good - r/c just went back 10 years.
Perhaps the Manufacturers should just focus on tamper-proof, proprietary ESCs that are epoxied closed and no-updatability for consumers.


Google it, people are building open-source ESCs, custom FETs and features that make our current state-of-the-art look like yesterday. I found a thread in an r/c forum where hobbyists are replacing FETs in low end speedos to try to go faster!

It will be interesting to watch if boosted finds a place in other than competitive racing.

ARM-CHAIR QUARTERBACK BUT I'LL BE RACING THIS WEEKEND!


  1. Common-hobby-shop-justwanttorunanRTR - they may try competitive racing one day but dont count on it. They will want the fastest and coolest thing that they can scream down their block, jump some trashcans and chase the cats. Ironically, without spending HUGE dollars. Boosted sounds good here....
  2. Don't fragment your racing program by building classes where 4 people make a class and ironically - struggle to get 4 people to run every week.
  3. Offer a class for 'run what you brought' for beginners. Provide a path that they can get into a spec motor at a minimum (ESC that they can grow with)
  4. For the sportsman - non-boosted 17.5/21.5
  5. For the expert - boosted 17.5
  6. For the expert - modified - boosted or non
PREDICTION

I might regret some of these...
  1. We will see boosted come back
  2. Competitive racing will start to cost racers more - batteries, motors, rotors, rotor checkers, dynos, zappers...
  3. Boosted ESCs will find a new market in the RTR space
  4. Innovation in r/c electronics will decline
  5. If boosted is dead - we will not see a dramatic increase in newcomers to competitive racing. We killed the wrong problem.
Happy Friday!
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:25 AM   #277
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I hope you regret none of them. Boosted will be back when people work out that blinky will mean you having to find that top 2% of the motors that Murff Dog says are always there. I can dial out 2% with my boost controls for nothing, but I can't afford to find that motor by buying the whole batch!

WE too are going blinky for our Stock class in the UK. I am sure the racing will be closer because the speeds are lower and we all need less mental capacity to keep the cars on the line than we currently do for 10.5 boosted.

After reading all this thread, I can see the problem. If anyone decided what the three classes should be, no one would agree with them. If you want RC to prosper it has to be stable. For it to be stable we all have to suck up what the classes are and race them. Doesn't look likely...
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:59 AM   #278
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I applaud TEKIN and its drivers for developing an innovative product. Other companies that invested in the R&D for similar features including Advanced Electronics, LRP, VIPER R/C, NOVAK and ORCA - seemingly a few more to add. Hopefully not wasted $$$.

Off the top of my head, do the largest distributors and manufacturers of RTR Hobby and Toy product in the US have boosted technology in their kits? Curious if they did, would 'boosted' still be dead?

###

Separate note - The sanctioning bodies should be run by racers but look to partner with companies like TRAXXAS (and Associated) to establish marketing, coop education and path to establish classes that provide entry to this hobby/sport. It has been refreshing to see some trends of this in past years with TRAXXAS and AE in motorsports sponsorship and HPI/Tamiya at promotional events.

There is a place here for GREAT PLANES and HORIZON to ensure that r/c has future beyond selling product into big-box retailers.

Holding regional/national events within proximity of many of the motorsports events gets us in the right direction - lets establish a set of classes that provide the best value and access to the racers with enough upside for the manufacturers to build a business.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:02 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myan_gsr View Post
@ chubbspeterson

This is reason enough why the new/current rules are hurting racers. I would much rather tweak than re buy stuff to remain competitive
The point Chubbs was making is that he did not have to by on a monthly basis to remain competitive such as was the case with round cells, and the equipment still has value when perhaps not at 100%, unlike brushed where you just through it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
...WE too are going blinky for our Stock class in the UK. I am sure the racing will be closer because the speeds are lower and we all need less mental capacity to keep the cars on the line than we currently do for 10.5 boosted....
So what would those 'stock guys' do if the option was to slow all the way down to 17.5 non-boosted or jump all the way up to full mod!!



I think the biggest 'stink' the Rumor mill about the ROAR rule change seems to have caused is Blinky for both the 'newbie' and the experienced guy not ready to run with the Mod God's. If turbo and laptops is too much to comprehend and too fast for the newbie then so be it, but if your ready to run the 'SuperStock' class then step up to the plate and embrace the concept of racing and technology.....if your not ready then that's what stock is for.

Brushless and Lipo is cheaper and easier than brushed and NiMh was. As long as we can use the technology to help prolong the life and offset the performance of slightly weaker or different powerband motors.

I've been RC'ing for 25+ years, I built my first kit, learned how to set it up and earned the right to race a faster class, till then I ran NOVICE with out the expectation that I deserved to run Nationals in the A Main, untill I was ready. The mindset that everyone needs to slow down so the slow guys can keep up is the same mentality that keeps promoting failing students in schools and reward last place for participating, everyone feels good and the net gain is a dumber weaker society.

Curiously, when/who was the last time the US had an On-Road World Champ.

Just my $0.02
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:18 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post

Curiously, when/who was the last time the US had an On-Road World Champ.

Just my $0.02

Last year. Ralph Burch in Nitro. For electric probably Chris Dosek or Joel Johnson from long ago...never in electric TC.

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Old 04-22-2011, 07:31 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDawson View Post
NEW/JUST STARTING
There are many options for new/just starting to r/c. From the RTR kits, budget ESC combo packs to high turn/low speed BL. There doesn't seem too many barriers for equipment availability - online or LHS. And seemingly those folks WILL NEVER make it to competitive racing. But they will one day want to go fast. Work or stand in a hobby shop one day and listen to the customers, surely someone will come in a say they want to go faster.

The first steps to 'going faster' is not much further away than tweaking settings on an ESC. Or at least used to be.

RANT
Software provides the flexibility get more out of what you have. Years ago we complained about having R/C electronics that weren't keeping up with other consumer electronics - in either updatability or quality/price. Companies adapted quickly and found either the expertise or engineering talent to deliver a new class of products for r/c.

The gains did improve product - albeit the advancements went much faster beyond some parts of the hobby. The customers that used these 'new' configurable products had to get smart quick and they did. Sure the newbies have a learning curve - but this is no different than many other 'hobbies'.

NO BOOST?

Though I haven't spoken to Bob or Jim in a long time - No Boost sounds much easier - no more time spent evaluating throttle algorithms, no writing advanced ESC software, no building consumer application software - sounds like a good way to cost-reduce products!

<insert sarcasm here>
That is not good - r/c just went back 10 years.
Perhaps the Manufacturers should just focus on tamper-proof, proprietary ESCs that are epoxied closed and no-updatability for consumers.


Google it, people are building open-source ESCs, custom FETs and features that make our current state-of-the-art look like yesterday. I found a thread in an r/c forum where hobbyists are replacing FETs in low end speedos to try to go faster!

It will be interesting to watch if boosted finds a place in other than competitive racing.

ARM-CHAIR QUARTERBACK BUT I'LL BE RACING THIS WEEKEND!


  1. Common-hobby-shop-justwanttorunanRTR - they may try competitive racing one day but dont count on it. They will want the fastest and coolest thing that they can scream down their block, jump some trashcans and chase the cats. Ironically, without spending HUGE dollars. Boosted sounds good here....
  2. Don't fragment your racing program by building classes where 4 people make a class and ironically - struggle to get 4 people to run every week.
  3. Offer a class for 'run what you brought' for beginners. Provide a path that they can get into a spec motor at a minimum (ESC that they can grow with)
  4. For the sportsman - non-boosted 17.5/21.5
  5. For the expert - boosted 17.5
  6. For the expert - modified - boosted or non
PREDICTION

I might regret some of these...
  1. We will see boosted come back
  2. Competitive racing will start to cost racers more - batteries, motors, rotors, rotor checkers, dynos, zappers...
  3. Boosted ESCs will find a new market in the RTR space
  4. Innovation in r/c electronics will decline
  5. If boosted is dead - we will not see a dramatic increase in newcomers to competitive racing. We killed the wrong problem.
Happy Friday!



very well said
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:37 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Last year. Ralph Burch in Nitro. For electric probably Chris Dosek or Joel Johnson from long ago...never in electric TC.

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Old 04-22-2011, 07:44 AM   #283
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In the last 15 years only Germany, Japan and Great Britian have won Electric Onroad world championships.

That means about 190 countries have not won any world championships in the last 15 years in onroad electric. We are not the only ones.

How this is relevant to the boost vs. non boost argument is beyond me.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:45 AM   #284
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Really, on-road just needs to go back to racing in un-prepared parking lots with high visability in the mini strip malls to become popular again.

Having a 'spec' or 'stock class' availiable at the track is pretty much required and it should be the most popular class, as its the 'average, once a week, r/c driver class'.

Everybody has to remember that every track is different though, a 17.5 motor on a small track is just fine where on a big track it would seem slow. If you want the entire country to run 17.5 for a spec motor, then running with or without boost, should be track size dependent and and the rule should vary throughout the different tracks across the country.

Modified class dosen't need to be 'open' modified, just faster than spec or stock. Modified class can or should have a motor limit based on track size as well.

Beginner classes is about getting people on track, they don't even need brushless motors, silver cans sealed endbell motors are just fine.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:45 AM   #285
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In real racing (e.g. Group B rally, F1), they try to slow down speeds as there is such a thing as too fast for drivers to control.

I think in on-road, left unchecked, becomes too fast except for the professionals. Europe went 5 cells and Japan 4 cells I think to slow down speeds? But now we're back to 8.4volt lipo, boost esc, brushless motor and lighter weight limits.

Stock now is probably faster than Mod was a few years ago.

To me speeds must be controlled and slowed down. Nothing to do with leveling for newbies or cost of rotors/dynos/ etc (most of which I think are exagerated, fast drivers probably don't spend as much nor bother with dynos).

Just my thoughts.
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