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Old 04-21-2011, 06:32 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by chubbspeterson View Post
Best 2 lines, why? because we now have the option to do anything, and we still argue over it.

And,

It is a huge step backwards, as a hobby/sport I think the idea is to make a class that the most people will join, under 17.5 is so slow, it would be a true rookie class, anything over 17.5 is "to fast" for the novice racer. The idea is to fill up tracks, fill up the races again. Nobody should blame Tekin, or any of the other manufactures. For me this goes back to the 09 carpet nats, Tekins were fast because the guys that had them figured out how to set them up in stock. There were other speedos with "boost" and adjustable timing, nobody new what the hell we were doing, it was easy, get a tekin and copy a profile, done. Now with more people working on using diffrent speedos the game is back to who did the most work. Heck I run a castle speedo, and I have run the Tekin, and the LRP, they all work diffrently, but I could get the same performance out of them all. Personaly it came to price point, and durability. So I went with the castle, not once in blinky, or a "boost" race have I felt cheated that my gear was wrong because I did not have one over the other. Again it comes down to the work, understanding what is going on. Face it, most people don't want to work at it to find the answers, they want them given to them. Go to any track, and the guy setting the pace is asked the most questions. Whats your FDR, what speedo, what batteries, what body, what setup. Tell me and it will fix it all, forget the fact I explode my car at the end of the straight, it's the Tekin I don't have that is costing me that lap and a half. The argument will not change, regardless of what we, or anyone else does. People need a reason for their failures or shortcomings. Blame the man if you will, never look at themselves.
This.

The issue is that if we want to grow the hobby, we have to accept that people are like this. Now, that doesn't mean that we keep changing classes to chase the rookie, or chase what we think the rookie needs/wants. We need to change our mindset to how knowledge is transferred to others. There is no formal method by which someone can really learn this from another person, except if he or she takes that person under their wing. All the setup guides in the world don't truly help unless that person knows when, how and why to apply that knowledge. With today's TC's, there is an overwhelming amount of tuning options, and often times two or three different ways to create similar effects. This, without help, will turn off the new racer. I suppose it relates back to speedo complexity as well, but that's missing the true point. When people are shown (not told, shown) that by learning x, y and z, that they will have more fun, they will take the time to learn those and more. On-road racing is not meant to have a Slash. On-road is about precision driving and precision car setup. The driving and the racing is quite a lot more fun when the car is setup well, regardless of what motor is in it. The trick is to help new racers discover that fun and not turn them off by the clique-y attitude that many seasoned racers have. If you see someone struggling with their car, or struggling with on-track etiquette, HELP! 5 minutes with someone will probably make their day without really having a dent in your ability to get your things done.

All this motor stuff is very secondary if you ask me. Stock should not be a class where EVERYTHING is fixed. Stock should have a select few things that you can play with, and he or she who does it best wins the dyno battle. It worked great that way with brushed 27t motors. I do believe that no timing is in the best interests of a stock class. I do not think that boost should go away by any means. It's great technology. Let's figure out how to use it best, not kill it because it hurt a few peoples feelings via an intellectual challenge. In my opinion, a great super stock class is a boosted version of stock. So 17.5 no timing, 17.5 boosted. Done. All anyone usually wants out of super stock is to go a bit faster than stock, somewhere halfway between it and full modified. It's a quick and easy way to allow someone to run both classes via the quick change of a speedo setting, rather than carrying around multiple motors.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:40 PM   #242
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I am stunned that Tekin thinks that timing in speed controls is a good idea...just like that a motor seller thinks it should be no timing and best motor wins. As usual most people are missing the point...which ultimately is how to keep or get new people into the hobby.

Instead it seems that what people want to do is drive business from the same small group of people until we all run out and money and find a new hobby. All we do is shift our hard earned money to the speedo of the week. I personally think that sucks! None of us are getting any better replacing our inabilities to drive or setup a car by buying a new speed control. In the end everyone will be in the same place in the main they belong in...mean while we are making it so dam hard for new people to get started and stay interested.

I can drive a boosted car and go pretty quick with it, but does that boost really help drive the hobby. Maybe, there is a small increase for a couple of small companies, but the real work is being done by companies like Traxxas and Associated.

I am not a big fan of Traxxas because they don't make anything that I would personally buy, but they get it. Appeal to the masses and drive business. Anyone can drive a stock slash...either at a skate park or on a track. They are advertising on a national level and driving interest into the hobby. Traxxas is sponsoring the TORC real size trucks and they are showing commercials every few minutes of their vehicles. That drives business!

AE is doing the same by sponsoring AMA races and big name drivers to bring awareness to the hobby.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:51 PM   #243
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This discussion opens up many issues many issues within our sport. I give Tekin full credit for what they have done with the industry. They for me single handedly gave something back to the racers, I mean from a business perspective who would update a 3 year old product for no cost to the user to keep them competitive... We should be grateful. Think about all the poor guys that had non up-datable speedies for blinky class. I've been competitively running the same Tekin RS Pro for 3 years, the best purchase i've made in this hobby.

Boost in my opinion was the great performance equalizer in spec classes. I remember watching the top stock guys with a box of motors cutting comms, re shimming and god knows what to assemble a quick motor for the next run. This was so time consuming and required a level of skill which was so overwhelming for me That i wasn't willing to move into stock. When brushless came out i remember many guy buying heaps of motors, finding the quickest ones for each circuit they raced at, meaning to keep up we had to buy what they had. Meet timing. One motor lasted me over a year, i could adjust the software in my Tekin to suit any condition & most importantly my driving style. The best racing over my time in the hobby has been boosted, it is a shame to see it die as quickly as it came into the industry.

We are now discussing the difficulties of new blood struggling with the technology aspect of racing. Really, who now doesn't have some kind of smart phone or regularly indulge in social media - far more complicated i think. The chassis is far more complicated to tweak that moving a slider on a computer program.

Some people cant handle full on modified racing for whatever reason eg. cost, speed so why place them into classes they dont feel comfortable with is not right. We need consistent classes (and commit to them for 3 or so years) to give inexperienced racers something to aim for and to ensure the right racers are racing with the right people based on their ability. Nothing felt better to me than "earning my stripes" and progressing through the ranks till i got to MOD.

Is boost dead, yes but I for one don't think it should be.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:01 PM   #244
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This.

With today's TC's, there is an overwhelming amount of tuning options, and often times two or three different ways to create similar effects. This, without help, will turn off the new racer. I suppose it relates back to speedo complexity as well, but that's missing the true point. When people are shown (not told, shown) that by learning x, y and z, that they will have more fun, they will take the time to learn those and more. On-road racing is not meant to have a Slash. On-road is about precision driving and precision car setup. The driving and the racing is quite a lot more fun when the car is setup well, regardless of what motor is in it. The trick is to help new racers discover that fun and not turn them off by the clique-y attitude that many seasoned racers have. If you see someone struggling with their car, or struggling with on-track etiquette, HELP! 5 minutes with someone will probably make their day without really having a dent in your ability to get your things done.
Brian, you know me, you know what track I come from. I have no problem helping out a new racer. But lets be honest here, most people that are good at what we do, onroad, are pretty smart. I tend to believe that I am a 1%, blessed with more talent, and a good work ethic than anything else, and I am not really that good. But I have a solid foundation that took, oh, I don't know 10 years to build. Trust me, the people who want help will get it. The people who want to learn, will. The people that just want to point and blame will do that too. I completly understand what you are saying, we need more seasoned racers teaching, I get it, I agree with it, but just like high school, and college, you will have those that want the short way out. Figure at any track, you get a small handfull of new racers, you lose half in 2 weeks, then half of those within the next month, and maybe you keep one or two. How many of those stick with it? Maybe one says over a year, now out of those how many become good, (if they choose to, I understand not everyone wants to race for bowling trophys) How many become good, who want to travel to other tracks, and run big national events? 1 every how many years? Trust me I want to find more people and bring them in, show them what is going on. But you know what, it's hard, there is alot of work, and commentment to what we do. It takes talent, brains, and a wallet, and devotion. More times than not you only get one of those.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:02 PM   #245
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there is no comparing off road to on road
you turn up at a lot of off-road tracks and you can run a 2wd slash against
other 2wd sc trucks,your qualifiers work out if you end up in a,b,c etc

this doesnt happen with on-road,person turns up with some thing different
they get told "yea you can run that chassis but you need to go buy another $150-$300 esc/motor to race"

thats why on-road is dying to many rules at club days
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:05 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by chubbspeterson View Post
Best 2 lines, why? because we now have the option to do anything, and we still argue over it.

And,
Face it, most people don't want to work at it to find the answers, they want them given to them. Go to any track, and the guy setting the pace is asked the most questions. Whats your FDR, what speedo, what batteries, what body, what setup. Tell me and it will fix it all, forget the fact I explode my car at the end of the straight, it's the Tekin I don't have that is costing me that lap and a half. The argument will not change, regardless of what we, or anyone else does. People need a reason for their failures or shortcomings. Blame the man if you will, never look at themselves.
This in a nut shell explains why most want to eliminate boost. What most seem to forget is that this hobby,in order to be good, takes hard work dedication and an understanding of what you are using.Practice and trial and error is the pain we suffer to win.Granted the noob should have a class to use as an entry level. Then if they are really interested in trying to be an honest contender THEY will seek out the advise on what ,when, where and how.No hobby out there tries to cater more to the noob than what is being peoposed here (IMO). I am not saying it's a bad thing but how many of you that started this hobby, back in the days of oval racing, had people standing around trying to hand you all you needed to be a good racer.I know I didn't I had to seek and ask and learn.
This hobby has been around for over twenty years and the discussion is always the same.Slow the cars, limit the technology for the new guy.If you really want to make this continue then help the new guy understand what he needs to do, don't wait till he is so frustrated that he wants to quit.Stop trying to slow down the fast guys, HELP the slow guys understand their cars and what it takes to be a winner.PRACTICE<PATIENCE<PERSERVENCE.

And while I am at it I want to thank two people that have been the most help to MY understanding of what ,where, how and when.1st John Jolley and 2nd Chris James. These two know how to make slow a guy belive that he can be a contender.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:08 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by myan_gsr View Post
This discussion opens up many issues many issues within our sport. I give Tekin full credit for what they have done with the industry. They for me single handedly gave something back to the racers, I mean from a business perspective who would update a 3 year old product for no cost to the user to keep them competitive... We should be grateful. Think about all the poor guys that had non up-datable speedies for blinky class. I've been competitively running the same Tekin RS Pro for 3 years, the best purchase i've made in this hobby.

Boost in my opinion was the great performance equalizer in spec classes. I remember watching the top stock guys with a box of motors cutting comms, re shimming and god knows what to assemble a quick motor for the next run. This was so time consuming and required a level of skill which was so overwhelming for me That i wasn't willing to move into stock. When brushless came out i remember many guy buying heaps of motors, finding the quickest ones for each circuit they raced at, meaning to keep up we had to buy what they had. Meet timing. One motor lasted me over a year, i could adjust the software in my Tekin to suit any condition & most importantly my driving style. The best racing over my time in the hobby has been boosted, it is a shame to see it die as quickly as it came into the industry.

We are now discussing the difficulties of new blood struggling with the technology aspect of racing. Really, who now doesn't have some kind of smart phone or regularly indulge in social media - far more complicated i think. The chassis is far more complicated to tweak that moving a slider on a computer program.

Some people cant handle full on modified racing for whatever reason eg. cost, speed so why place them into classes they dont feel comfortable with is not right. We need consistent classes (and commit to them for 3 or so years) to give inexperienced racers something to aim for and to ensure the right racers are racing with the right people based on their ability. Nothing felt better to me than "earning my stripes" and progressing through the ranks till i got to MOD.

Is boost dead, yes but I for one don't think it should be.
+1
But I don't think boost is dead. And then you have guys like me searching for the smooth power that have been through 6 brands of ESC looking for something that drives like the brushed speed controls used to.... It is like when brushless was first coming out everyone forgot how to make the power band smooth. It has gotten better and I actually found a ESC that is smooth enough. But what was interesting to me was that I was actually faster with the smoother ESC. Not tons faster but .2sec a lap which is pretty significant. I did a bunch of back to back test and yep smooth is fast.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:16 PM   #248
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I am stunned that Tekin thinks that timing in speed controls is a good idea...just like that a motor seller thinks it should be no timing and best motor wins. As usual most people are missing the point...which ultimately is how to keep or get new people into the hobby.

Instead it seems that what people want to do is drive business from the same small group of people until we all run out and money and find a new hobby. All we do is shift our hard earned money to the speedo of the week. I personally think that sucks! None of us are getting any better replacing our inabilities to drive or setup a car by buying a new speed control. In the end everyone will be in the same place in the main they belong in...mean while we are making it so dam hard for new people to get started and stay interested.

I can drive a boosted car and go pretty quick with it, but does that boost really help drive the hobby. Maybe, there is a small increase for a couple of small companies, but the real work is being done by companies like Traxxas and Associated.

I am not a big fan of Traxxas because they don't make anything that I would personally buy, but they get it. Appeal to the masses and drive business. Anyone can drive a stock slash...either at a skate park or on a track. They are advertising on a national level and driving interest into the hobby. Traxxas is sponsoring the TORC real size trucks and they are showing commercials every few minutes of their vehicles. That drives business!

AE is doing the same by sponsoring AMA races and big name drivers to bring awareness to the hobby.
Ok, wow, getting people to the hobby is what Traxxas is doing, one RTR kit at a time, and you know where 75% of those Slashes end up? Some kids closet, because he broke it. Slash and RTR are starter kits, that is what gets people in. The real genus is the idea that you can take the thing right out of the box and go. In sales, people dream of products like this, bam quick sale, and you get to pick up some return business. Lets not mix, RTR true beginer classes with the topic here. Im sure somewere they are running boosted slashes, but guess what, they will turn that into TC, it's like looking into a mirror. One company comes out with a chassis, next year there is 10, they design the hell out of them, and now they are to hard for ave joe to pick up and run.

AE, and other offroad companys are targeting an audiance, or age group. Most of the people that started this Industry in the 60's and 70's all there loyal racers are getting old. That old crowd is slowly going away, and now the hobby is looking for mass apeal.

Also, lets not get this confused with "speedo of the week" come on, almost all of the top ones have software updates, and speedo issues were realy only around for the first year or so, 08-09? I think most people have a grip on this right? If not, you have some learning to do.

Boosted, timing, no timing, whatever are not driving people away, or turning away customers. The people that want to do this will. Think of it this way, Slash anc things like that are, dirt oval racing camaro's at some little speedway in the south. Almost anyone can do it. Budget is low, just some hard work and free time. On road is now like F1, lots of work, technical chassis, motors, fuel. Lot's of driving skill. This will not change. there is no class to take these things away. it's on road racing.

We road a great high onroad for a number of years, it will come back, as soon as something makes it cool again. The Sedan made it cool, up till then it was pan cars, you know how many people I heard say they got TC's because they were more advanced than there 1/12th scale....humm what do we here now, I want a WGT car, it's so much easier than my TC....Full Circle, Full Circle...
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:16 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by chubbspeterson View Post
Brian, you know me, you know what track I come from. I have no problem helping out a new racer. But lets be honest here, most people that are good at what we do, onroad, are pretty smart. I tend to believe that I am a 1%, blessed with more talent, and a good work ethic than anything else, and I am not really that good. But I have a solid foundation that took, oh, I don't know 10 years to build. Trust me, the people who want help will get it. The people who want to learn, will. The people that just want to point and blame will do that too. I completly understand what you are saying, we need more seasoned racers teaching, I get it, I agree with it, but just like high school, and college, you will have those that want the short way out. Figure at any track, you get a small handfull of new racers, you lose half in 2 weeks, then half of those within the next month, and maybe you keep one or two. How many of those stick with it? Maybe one says over a year, now out of those how many become good, (if they choose to, I understand not everyone wants to race for bowling trophys) How many become good, who want to travel to other tracks, and run big national events? 1 every how many years? Trust me I want to find more people and bring them in, show them what is going on. But you know what, it's hard, there is alot of work, and commentment to what we do. It takes talent, brains, and a wallet, and devotion. More times than not you only get one of those.
You're right Mike. And I'm not singling someone like you out. I agree with all of your points, and I accept them to be true. That said, it won't stop me from trying to increase that percentage. The ones that want the help will seek it out, as you put it. However, what I am trying to do at the local level is create the medium for those who want help to get it, and get it well. I want to see talented young drivers develop into future race winners. At the least, I want to help someone reach the potential of their current driving ability. It might be a little idealistic, I get it, but we'll see how it goes. I'll let you know.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:24 PM   #250
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My 2.5 cents. Driving rc is good. Competition is better. For now, let the local clubs work out the details with where to use the boost class. Blinky is a great way to start and from what I found most clubs have a "blinky" class of some sort. For those of us that are beginners, work on your chassis set up and driving skills and then, maybe, move on to the faster classes that encompass boosted speedo profiles. For those of you who condemn the new technology, you do have valid points. If you still don't like it, move on.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:25 PM   #251
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You're right Mike. And I'm not singling someone like you out. I agree with all of your points, and I accept them to be true. That said, it won't stop me from trying to increase that percentage. The ones that want the help will seek it out, as you put it. However, what I am trying to do at the local level is create the medium for those who want help to get it, and get it well. I want to see talented young drivers develop into future race winners. At the least, I want to help someone reach the potential of their current driving ability. It might be a little idealistic, I get it, but we'll see how it goes. I'll let you know.
I know, and I agree as well, I to try to increase that percentage. But I can tell you this, good luck my friend. I hope, I really do that you can help create some medium. Because I have tried, I have watched other try, I have watched numorus tracks try, we watch governing bodies try, and promoters try...It comes down to the people, what do the people want to do. I here all this talk on on road coming back...

Hey, when Scotty puts carpet back in Trackside...I'll know it back.....
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:32 PM   #252
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I am stunned that Tekin thinks that timing in speed controls is a good idea...just like that a motor seller thinks it should be no timing and best motor wins. As usual most people are missing the point...which ultimately is how to keep or get new people into the hobby.

Instead it seems that what people want to do is drive business from the same small group of people until we all run out and money and find a new hobby. All we do is shift our hard earned money to the speedo of the week. I personally think that sucks! None of us are getting any better replacing our inabilities to drive or setup a car by buying a new speed control. In the end everyone will be in the same place in the main they belong in...mean while we are making it so dam hard for new people to get started and stay interested.

I can drive a boosted car and go pretty quick with it, but does that boost really help drive the hobby. Maybe, there is a small increase for a couple of small companies, but the real work is being done by companies like Traxxas and Associated.

I am not a big fan of Traxxas because they don't make anything that I would personally buy, but they get it. Appeal to the masses and drive business. Anyone can drive a stock slash...either at a skate park or on a track. They are advertising on a national level and driving interest into the hobby. Traxxas is sponsoring the TORC real size trucks and they are showing commercials every few minutes of their vehicles. That drives business!

AE is doing the same by sponsoring AMA races and big name drivers to bring awareness to the hobby.
No I don't think making a cheap toy that people happen to race as a side show is the same as what keeps people in onroad racing. While I do think it would be neat for say Xray or Associated to sponsor real road racing, I just don't think that would draw more people in. Not when the average racer TC anyway is rolling around 800-1000$.

What we need is consistent rules. Not new rules every year or every time technology changes. That is what will turn people off. Or ROAR officials voicing opinions on threads like these about what racers "need" is enough to make me never attend another ROAR event. I like racing.
I don't mind spending money if I choose on a new ESC or motor etc.... but I don't like to be told that this is or that is not good because it is too fast or makes things too complex for new people.
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:49 PM   #253
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No I don't think making a cheap toy that people happen to race as a side show is the same as what keeps people in onroad racing. While I do think it would be neat for say Xray or Associated to sponsor real road racing, I just don't think that would draw more people in. Not when the average racer TC anyway is rolling around 800-1000$.

What we need is consistent rules. Not new rules every year or every time technology changes. That is what will turn people off. Or ROAR officials voicing opinions on threads like these about what racers "need" is enough to make me never attend another ROAR event. I like racing.
I don't mind spending money if I choose on a new ESC or motor etc.... but I don't like to be told that this is or that is not good because it is too fast or makes things too complex for new people.
If you get people interested the rest will take care of itself...I was running Nikko cars when I was young...that does not mean that I am still taking Radio shack cars to the track. Those cars got me interested...over time I have moved on to great cars. The JcPenny catalog got me started in RC...not some old guy wrenching his little car for hours to blow out on the first corner. Not very many people see a touring cart kit and say...man I want to drive that. They relate RC cars to real cars...

When I was younger I wanted a Ferrari RC car, because I wanted a f'in Ferrari...not a Mazda Speed 6. Before I got into racing I could not even look at the workings of an RC car and tell the difference between a good one and a bad one. If you can relate to what people like you can create enough interest to get them fully sucked in. Over time people will find the area of RC that they like and that they can relate to, but not at first. It takes time!
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:04 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by macdude View Post
No I don't think making a cheap toy that people happen to race as a side show is the same as what keeps people in onroad racing. While I do think it would be neat for say Xray or Associated to sponsor real road racing, I just don't think that would draw more people in. Not when the average racer TC anyway is rolling around 800-1000$.

What we need is consistent rules. Not new rules every year or every time technology changes. That is what will turn people off. Or ROAR officials voicing opinions on threads like these about what racers "need" is enough to make me never attend another ROAR event. I like racing.
I don't mind spending money if I choose on a new ESC or motor etc.... but I don't like to be told that this is or that is not good because it is too fast or makes things too complex for new people.
I dont recall any ROAR officials telling anyone on here what the "need". I dont recall seeing any voting ROAR officials on here to be honest. And that is part of the problem in my personal opinion.

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Old 04-21-2011, 08:14 PM   #255
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