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Old 04-20-2011, 11:47 PM   #181
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OK, here is my 2 cents, as a motor manufacturer.

I have made this suggestion to ROAR in writing with no response.

Stock class should be stock class. Super Stock should be super stock. Modified should be modified.

Blinky mode is a joke IMO, until ROAR steps up to the plate and makes every manufacturer offer a 21.5, 17.5, and 13.5 turn motor, WITH NO TIMING ADJUSTMENT, that has a ROAR MANDATED 24 Degrees of timing built into the sensor board assembly. Force every manufacturer to submit a motor built to these exact specs, or else that brand will not have a legal motor offering for stock classes. How ROAR adopted the rules package we use today, and allowed stock motors to have adjustable timing is beyond me.

27turn 24 degree stock motor racing worked... why? Because all manufacturers had to build a better mousetrap, within the same specs.

So here we are, now preparing to negate all of the technical advances companies have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop in ESC technology, just to open up another all out war... the motor timing war.

Lets make stock racing like it should be. Pick your brand of choice blinky mode ESC, and (hypothetical) 24 degree 17.5 locked can motor, and go racing, knowing that the guy next to you on the drivers stand has EXACTLY 24 degrees in their motor, and their ESC is blinking in all of its no-timing glory.

Yes Batteries and motors will become more important than the ESC... I am OK with that.

Now Super Stock. I think super stock should be similar. Locked 24 degrees of timing in a 13.5 motor. Throw in your Blinky mode ESC of choice, and go racing. With the timing locked, so many variables are eliminated.

Allow Boost or timing profiles in Modified, along with adjustable timing...

It was done in brushed days, why the hell cant it work now?!

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Old 04-20-2011, 11:57 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by chubbspeterson View Post
Stock racing is about doing your homework, test, test, test. the guys that do that, and work on their chassis, and DRIVING, are the guys on top...

Take a look at a Top stock driver's run, I bet at the big races, were the top stock racers go, it's 6-8 minutes of near perfection.

Get your hot lap and 20+ lap average to be within .01 to .02 then you'll be on to something....

Pisst...It is the same is Mod too....

Exactly!! Rules. Schmules, it's all the same. Now go polish that Mod TC region champ trophy.......
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:01 AM   #183
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matt (murfdogg) your rules make to much sense
the big problem i see is difference in track sizes.
what is good for one track is crap for another.
take for instance World GT (1/10 pan)
they made this 1s or 4 cell which is probably great for all those small indoor tracks but for those running out door 1/8 scale tracks is a joke.
i am sure on some tracks a non boosted 13.5 is great but on others with big straights its way to slow.
there needs to be some difference allowed between small and large tracks
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:03 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by The MurfDogg View Post
OK, here is my 2 cents, as a motor manufacturer.

I have made this suggestion to ROAR in writing with no response.

Blinky mode is a joke IMO, until ROAR steps up to the plate and makes every manufacturer offer a 21.5, 17.5, and 13.5 turn motor, WITH NO TIMING ADJUSTMENT, that has a ROAR MANDATED 24 Degrees of timing built into the sensor board assembly. Force every manufacturer to submit a motor built to these exact specs, or else that brand will not have a legal motor offering for stock classes. How ROAR adopted the rules package we use today, and allowed stock motors to have adjustable timing is beyond me.

27turn 24 degree stock motor racing worked... why? Because all manufacturers had to build a better mousetrap, within the same specs.

So here we are, now preparing to negate all of the technical advances companies have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop in ESC technology, just to open up another all out war... the motor timing war.

Lets make stock racing like it should be. Pick your brand of choice blinky mode ESC, and (hypothetical) 24 degree 17.5 locked can motor, and go racing, knowing that the guy next to you on the drivers stand has EXACTLY 24 degrees in their motor, and their ESC is blinking in all of its no-timing glory.


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ROAR will have a spec stock motor with locked timing. The fact the timing is adjustable is not the problem, it's the idea that because it is adjustable, "cheating" can be going on. Anyone who raced on road with "locked" timing in stock motors knows there are many ways to skin a cat..and cheating was hapening there as well.

Everyone misses the point. People need to stop thinking all this stuff is the same. even all stock motors are difrent, even ones made on the same day in the same company right after each other. Same goes for batteries, it's not the rules that are the problem. It's the people, the racers who don't really understand what the rules are telling them.

All packs have to be 7.2v 2cell lipos, charger to 8.40....ok, they all do that, but some are much better than others. It's the racers job to figure that out.

All motors have to be 17.5 with locked 24 degrees of timing..Ok, how many can I buy? I want to test and tune them all. Why? Because thay are not all the same.

How about handout stock motors? Im sure thats coming back, and thats great, just like spec tires. That helps, but it by no means makes them all equall.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:05 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Exactly!! Rules. Schmules, it's all the same. Now go polish that Mod TC region champ trophy.......
HA!

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Old 04-21-2011, 12:08 AM   #186
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HA!

I only say this because I'm probably the last WGT Open 13.5 region 5 Champ, EVER!!!! Obviously if the other competitiors in this class could set-up a Tekin like me, I never would've won
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:17 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by The MurfDogg View Post
OK, here is my 2 cents, as a motor manufacturer.

I have made this suggestion to ROAR in writing with no response.

Stock class should be stock class. Super Stock should be super stock. Modified should be modified.

Blinky mode is a joke IMO, until ROAR steps up to the plate and makes every manufacturer offer a 21.5, 17.5, and 13.5 turn motor, WITH NO TIMING ADJUSTMENT, that has a ROAR MANDATED 24 Degrees of timing built into the sensor board assembly. Force every manufacturer to submit a motor built to these exact specs, or else that brand will not have a legal motor offering for stock classes. How ROAR adopted the rules package we use today, and allowed stock motors to have adjustable timing is beyond me.

27turn 24 degree stock motor racing worked... why? Because all manufacturers had to build a better mousetrap, within the same specs.

So here we are, now preparing to negate all of the technical advances companies have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop in ESC technology, just to open up another all out war... the motor timing war.

Lets make stock racing like it should be. Pick your brand of choice blinky mode ESC, and (hypothetical) 24 degree 17.5 locked can motor, and go racing, knowing that the guy next to you on the drivers stand has EXACTLY 24 degrees in their motor, and their ESC is blinking in all of its no-timing glory.

Yes Batteries and motors will become more important than the ESC... I am OK with that.

Now Super Stock. I think super stock should be similar. Locked 24 degrees of timing in a 13.5 motor. Throw in your Blinky mode ESC of choice, and go racing. With the timing locked, so many variables are eliminated.

Allow Boost or timing profiles in Modified, along with adjustable timing...

It was done in brushed days, why the hell cant it work now?!

Matt Murphy
Owner - MurfDogg Motor Works
I agree with all but the blinky!! In the old days a stock motor was $25, now they're $70 or so. If I buy one that's not up to snuff, in blinky, it's a paperweight. If I can tune my speedo's power delivery to that motor, then I have something. I have three Duo 1's, all 3 are fast, but each one requires a slightly different speedo set-up. Enter blinky, and I have two turds, and one good motor. At least in the brushed days I could tune it with brush compound, cut and spring.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:22 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
I agree with all but the blinky!! In the old days a stock motor was $25, now they're $70 or so. If I buy one that's not up to snuff, in blinky, it's a paperweight. If I can tune my speedo's power delivery to that motor, then I have something. I have three Duo 1's, all 3 are fast, but each one requires a slightly different speedo set-up. Enter blinky, and I have two turds, and one good motor. At least in the brushed days I could tune it with brush compound, cut and spring.
seems to me there is a lot of difference between brand of motors as well ,they give a turn rating but there kv is all over the place,as you say having adjustable timing can even these motors out some
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:25 AM   #189
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seems to me there is a lot of difference between brand of motors as well ,they give a turn rating but there kv is all over the place,as you say having adjustable timing can even these motors out some
Precisely.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:28 AM   #190
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i am sure on some tracks a non boosted 13.5 is great but on others with big straights its way to slow.
Possibly why SS is 10.5T here, I melted a 10.5T first time out with zero timing, a borrowed 13.5T felt a lot slower on the EPR back straight, but maybe not so much slower you could not get used to it...


Don't really like people continuing to use 8th offroad as some big benchmark, it's got limitation no one mentions, fuel size and nitro content, engine limits, traction limits big time, huge tracks with a giant level of racing error to allow people on all levels to finish well, it's not a valid comparison in my mind, on road is such a different beast.


Blinky or non modes, whatever specs, I think some forget they/we limit in on road electric because we can, it's a near unique ability to create a more even level of racing, I say "more even" cause it's never going to be dead even, but damn it's not a bad thing overall, issues or not remember it creates racing where you can make people of all skill levels feel comfortable in.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:11 AM   #191
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I can go thru a batch of 100 17.5 motors, and if they are all set at the same timing settings, they are all within 1.5 to 2% of each other, and if they are not, I know I have a problem.

KV is a VERY MISGUIDED way that companies represent the power of their motors. Every brand builds timing into the boards in varying degrees... every can has timing adjustment on it thereafter. Some claim 2500KV out of a 17.5. Thats fine, I can get that out of mine, all i need to do is turn the sensor board.

My 17.5 motors are between 2150KV and 2200KV on my equipment, and draw between 1.0 and 1.1 Amps. I can make a 17.5 put out 3600KV easily. Just turn it up to 45 degrees of endbell timing. That makes it the fastest 17.5 available right? According to basic RC marketing logic, it does. I would never attempt to race a motor with the timing that high, but it is something I could do to make big numbers for marketing purposes, AND NOBODY COULD CALL ME A LIAR.

You wanna argue about how things are not equal motor to motor, batch to batch... Well, I guess its time the consumer holds a manufacturer responsible for their quality control and product consistency. Every motor is built to exact specs provided by ROAR. If it has the proper stator stack, Rotor size, and amount of wire, they all should be VERY CLOSE. Yes there will be slight variances, but nothing like is being insinuated.

(This next statement is something I prove every time I do a batch of 17.5 motors)
If I set 100 of my 17.5 motors to 0 degrees timing on the can, and run them all up on the Dyno, 96 of them will have within 3 watts of eachother. There will be a few that are lower or higher by 1 or 2 watts, but usually that is due to something being wrong with them... (at which time I further inspect to see what could be the problem).

Is there speed secrets out there? Yes. Will that still exist? Absolutely. Locked timing motors all built to 24 degrees of timing would require manufacturers to build their motors to make the best power they can within a tight confinement. Why not go one step farther, mandate 12.3mm Spec rotors?

I am not against timing boost ESC's, but believe STOCK should NEVER have timing adjustment. Super Stock should be Spec'ed out motors with whatever ESC rules the race promoter decides.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:36 AM   #192
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Will sensorless be a better solution to locking down timing and boost?
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:23 AM   #193
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Will sensorless be a better solution to locking down timing and boost?
Sensorless 17.5T has terrible feel, and there is a lot of ESC's out there that can't handle sensorless. In my experience, only GM can run a somewhat smooth sensorless with high-turns motors (like 17.5T).
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:14 AM   #194
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I just don't understand the reasoning behind the arguments against 'Advanced Timing' esc's, every since sanctioning bodies have introduced a 'stock' limit, people find their ways round it, via illegal or grey areas. OK, you have your blinky profile, what if one esc is faster than another manufacturers blinky profile, is one cheating, whose going to disect the code, put it on a system to check what it is doing to produce more rpm's etc..... you won't get away from the fact that if you 'limit' something, there will always be one net response, bigger holes in racers pockets to buy the latest, newest, fastest product.

At my club, in the UK, we have a no motor limit, with boosted esc's, and if you can win, running a 6.5 or something, brilliant, you deserve to win, I have been quite successful with a 13.5, boosted, as it is easier to drive, but still fast enough, so I don't see the reason with playing with a format that works.

I can understand having a 'feeder' class, like 17.5 unboosted, but to be fair, if your hand bagging in that class, then you should be made to move into a faster class, if you can't control a 13.5 boosted car (which isn't at all hard, my kids can), turn the boost down.

Personally, any 'National' event should only ever be an Open Motor class, as it should be the best of the best, regional events, limit it to say, 10.5 and let the clubs sort themselves out.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:32 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by The MurfDogg View Post
I can go thru a batch of 100 17.5 motors, and if they are all set at the same timing settings, they are all within 1.5 to 2% of each other, and if they are not, I know I have a problem.

(This next statement is something I prove every time I do a batch of 17.5 motors)
If I set 100 of my 17.5 motors to 0 degrees timing on the can, and run them all up on the Dyno, 96 of them will have within 3 watts of eachother. There will be a few that are lower or higher by 1 or 2 watts, but usually that is due to something being wrong with them... (at which time I further inspect to see what could be the problem).
So a low-end motor is 3 watts lower than the high-end in a single run of your product... In a car as light as a 12th scale 1s pan car 3 watts is pretty significant. So what you're saying is that out of 100 motors, there are four "anomalies". So let's, for the sake of argument, say that all four of the "anomalies" are up on watts. That means that 4 motors out of 100 are faster than the rest?Wow, way worse than my assumption of going through ten motors to find one. So now we're looking for the top 4% rather than the top 10%!

I insinuated nothing in my prior posts. I have THREE of THE SAME type of motor. All three are Duo 1's, stock rotor, untouched sensorboards. All three of them show differently on the dyno, and all three behave differently on the track. Through ESC tuning and rollout, I can get all three to run the same laptimes over an eight minute run. In Blinky, one of those motors is significantly faster than the other two.

It's not a slam on the Motor guys. There's differences in all mass produced products. I just prefer having a way to even things out.
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