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Old 09-17-2004, 09:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brandon Melton
... Keeps costs down- Hardly!! Anyone that tells you the takeoff 27 doesn't fall off after two runs is full of it. Why do they offer you 2 sets to qualify when there's 4 rounds, then another set for the mains, and ANOTHER set for making the A. We all know if you want to compete you have to buy ALL these tires.

Not to mention, for TRUE race trim practice, you need to put on a new set every two practice runs, because that's what you will do when you race. $25 every 2 packs for the "privateer". Do the math, your hardly saving money...
Brandon,

It's true that you spend just as much money on tires as you may have before, but what you need to keep in mind is, at least its a tire that probably works instead of some combination that you thought would work and now you have a $40.00 set of tires that most likely don't work anywhere.

So, do you still think you're not saving any money?

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Old 09-17-2004, 10:05 AM   #17
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Default Another perspective

Handout motors and tires ARE a great idea-but it does put a very big financial burden on the track/promoter to stock enough. And if the distributer wont take them back at end of the race-the track/club is stuck with the bill. Not good.

And we all know the tracks NOT allowed to make any money on you the racer so they have to sell the handouts to you at or very close to cost.

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Old 09-17-2004, 10:10 AM   #18
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Guys- I am not bashing the idea. I personally think the idea behind it is great, but in practice it doesn't always work. I am not asking everyone to agree because rationally that will never happen. As far as mounting up a set of tires goes, true, if they don't work you out of the money. But on the flip side (considering this is on road forum) how come off road races don't run a pre glue tire. If you throw the wrong foam in at a offroad national your still screwed, is that cost effective. Like I said , the idea is great.

What if in TC there was the rule "this is the tire, run the wheel and insert you want". I do not run for either takeoff or sorex or any other rubber tire (so I have no bias, just on track experience). But in talking about cost control, realize this. I can glue up a set of takeoff 27's using a different wheel and insert and get more "quality" runs out of the tire than if it comes in the preglue package. This would avoid the two runs and done way of racing at outdoor nats.

Another note on cost- What does a control tire do to the entry fee of the race. Does the average Joe going to the nats expect to make the a main and contend for the win, no. Would the average joe be content with running his personal tires and saving the money from his entry? Besides, would you take a step pin to a blue groove track, or a sorex 40 to a race in Oregon in October. The issues I mention are within reason. There are truely a selective number of tires you would consider anyway, plus that's the spirit of racing, who finds the hot ticket. Don't think I'm arguing with you guys on it because I'm not, there's always two sides to every coin and we come on these forums looking for tech help/racing discussions. That's just what it is, a racing discussion.

Example- Not picking on Barry, just using him because he posted. But lets say he is at the nats, and he runs 10 packs in practice. AE still has to provide Barry with fresh tires for practice whether it's different makes or plenty of the control tire. It doesn't limit you to running less tires, just a specific one. People try and isolate it to saving the individual money, but if a privateer has already purchased plane tickets, hotel, entries, etc.. Most likely they are not in the race due to cost effectiveness. Look at who wins races whether it's spec tire or not, the Factory drivers. They will win either way due to resources (and they are the best drivers, and for many it's their JOB and they work hard at it, they deserve it), which is the case with any form of racing.
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:14 AM   #19
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Ray- good point. Everyone talks about supporting the LHS's and local race tracks, well, if they can't sell tires of any type, and they have to sell them at cost, AND give half the entries to ROAR, how do they truely benefit other than public exposure for running the race. It's not like a brand name, to where we see it in the mags, and go buy it. If you see a track in the mag or online, it doesn't mean you can steadily support them because of their recognition and efforts.
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:16 AM   #20
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well, if you guys don't want your handouts you can mail them to me.................
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:21 AM   #21
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Gundam- you paying, LOL?? I have stacks of cs27's just sitting there because I personally prefer another tire that works better at 90% of the tracks I go to.

And don't think that Schumacher doesn't get a huge grin on there face everytime a track announces they have a handout tire. It's keeping small amounts of money in the racers pocket, but putting money into others.
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Old 09-17-2004, 11:13 AM   #22
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So let me get this straight....

Those who wants racers can bring whatever inserts, tires and what the heck not they want to run? How the heck would we know if any of the inserts that you have put in your tires is ROAR approved? That means after every single run, we'll have to cut up your brand new one-run tires to find out if the inserts are illegal or not?

And don't give me the resolution would be that the racers will just take the inserts/tires/wheels and have the official tech it before hand and then glue them right in front of the officials and then the officials mark the beads/wheels...... You know how much time that will take?

There are just more pros than cons for spec tires at any race, simple as that.

Tires are a very important part of racing, but if you have problem setting up your car for the event spec tires, then you have a bigger problem than this whole spec tires issue.

Dom
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Old 09-17-2004, 11:20 AM   #23
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I know that from my standpoint the handout tires allowed me to attend the Roar Nats in Portland. The deciding factor was the handout tires for me and the group that flew from Kansas to Portland for the event. I know from the track viewpoint that it is tuff. But I also know that the ability to travel to a event and run the same tires that all the other racers run at that event is what I think is the biggest Pro. It may save some money too but the more equal playing field the more attractive the race is. I am not blind enough to know that there are racers that have advantages...but they have less when we talk handout tires. I knew I had the same tires as the Pros...I had the ability to buy the same number of sets that they did. Now my lack of driving skill was the deciding factor not the ability to find the perfect tire/rim/insert.

Thanks

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Old 09-17-2004, 12:18 PM   #24
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120 entry`s !!!!


Something is not working ......

I bad sign ?
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by litespeed-dom
So let me get this straight....

Those who wants racers can bring whatever inserts, tires and what the heck not they want to run? How the heck would we know if any of the inserts that you have put in your tires is ROAR approved? That means after every single run, we'll have to cut up your brand new one-run tires to find out if the inserts are illegal or not?

And don't give me the resolution would be that the racers will just take the inserts/tires/wheels and have the official tech it before hand and then glue them right in front of the officials and then the officials mark the beads/wheels...... You know how much time that will take?

There are just more pros than cons for spec tires at any race, simple as that.

Tires are a very important part of racing, but if you have problem setting up your car for the event spec tires, then you have a bigger problem than this whole spec tires issue.

Dom
I don't believe there is a ROAR approved list of Wheels, tires, and inserts.

At the last Worlds, I believe tires were glued up in a special area with a Tech person watching. No one seemed to have a problem.

Tires are at least 90% of set-up are more. I hate buying spec tires at a race ($250) and then tossing them.

The only pro is that everybody runs the same tire. Maybe someday everybody will have to run the same car, motor, speedcontrol, radio gear, set-up, then it will be only on driver skill!
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:14 PM   #26
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The thing I like about the spec tires is it's one less thing about your setup that you have to worry about. One less variable.
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:23 PM   #27
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I think what people aren't understanding is the whole spec tires deal is easier for the host club and racers, period. So far, we have far more people liking the idea of spec tires than those who complains about it.

And keep in mind, we sold CS-27 set for $25 each at Nats. You are given 1 set with your entry, can buy 2 sets for heats, then another set if you qualify for A-main. So 4 sets total.... $75 worth of additional tires. You get 4 sets of tires for whole lot cheaper than if you would clue tires yourself.

And again, if you have hosted a nationals event, you try to eliminate waiting lines and have the most efficient way to deal with things. For those having host a Nationals event, you would have no idea what's involved in it. The less trouble, the better.
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:28 PM   #28
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Default Clearing things up...

Hi guys...I'm Adrian Martinez, the sales manager from Schumacher USA. We are the exclusive importer of Take Off Tires into the US. I am responsible for every US race run on these tires since 2000.

There are a couple of reasons why Take Offs seem to keep popping up everywhere

1. There are a lot of tires out there that are very fast for one run but only the CS series tires seem to be able to turn consistent laps from the 1st to the 4th run. Other tires are 2-3/10th's per lap slower on the 2nd run and lose more every run after that. This is a big deal when you are limiting the quantity of tires used. It used to be that heats where you had to run re-runs were throwaway heats. In Portland most of the factory guys liked the tires best on the 2nd run. That is unheard of.

2. We heavily discount them to the race organizers so they can offer them to racers at a low cost.

3. All race tires are sold on consignment so the promoters can send back all unused/unopened packs. They never get stuck with extra tires.

4. The are premounted so the promoters can avoid the impossible task of insert tech. This also saves a lot of time for the racers.

5. Take Off tires are the most popular rubber racing tire in the US today. Actually they are the most popular in Europe too. This means everyone is familiar with them.

Open tire problems

The last big open tire race we went to was the Novak race in 2001. We bought $2000 worth of various tires. $1200 in various inserts. This was for 2 guys to run Mod. In the end the best tires were the Yok 139G prototypes that Chris Tosolini had received a few days before the race. No one else had them. Chris gave a few sets out to our guys as we used to sponsor him and he really is a good guy and thats what we ran. $3200 spent on tires that were useless.

This wasn't the first time that happened either. At the 2000 Carpet Nats at Minnreg Yokomo showed up with new 138S and 138M tires. No one else had them and Barry Win that year. They were a huge advantage at that track.

At the 1999 and 2000 Reedy races at Ripon Barry figure out a trick to make H13's way faster. You had to run an Echo Insert (from Schumacher so he had to tell us) Dremel down the center ridge of the insert, cut the insert, shorten it by 6mm and glue it back together then trim inner bead ridges from the wheel. This was the only way to make the tire run decent for more than one run. For those 2 years Yokomo and Schumacher had an advantage no one else knew about.

Spec tires eliminate all of this funny business.
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Old 09-17-2004, 02:04 PM   #29
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I have to agree with Barry on this... I think handouts are great. At the offroad mod nats this year we were getting 1 run on tires because of the track surface. Throughout the week running 3 classes, which many people do, I burned through 36 sets of rear tires, plus about 10 sets of fronts. Because it was a handout tire race using evil twins, I brought 1 box of tires down because I knew what we had to run. If it was open tire choice, I would have needed to bring evil twins, holeshots, losi ifmar pins, losi t-2000 and x-2000's, etc plus various fronts. Since we dont know what will work until we get there, we would need to bring 15-20 sets of each. THAT gets expensive. With the handouts, we can buy as many sets as we want of the handout tire, and thats it. We dont nee to bring enough of each tire for 4 days of practice just in case that is the tire to use.

The only unfortunate part is that if a Losi driver wins with a pro-line handout, he can't promote their tire, or if a pro-line tire wins with a losi handout, then he can't promote his sponsors tires.

World's is where most racers dont have to pay for anything, so that is where I think we should keep the open tire choice rule.

Just my .02 on the whole thing, I know some disagree though.
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Old 09-17-2004, 02:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by SirSpeedy
So let me understand this -

I can't wait to be the 2005 ROAR 191.3mm, 55.5oz, 23turn, 22degree, 5cell, 33% sponsored National Champion.
Tim- Don't forget SPEC DRIVESHAFTS!!!
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