R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-26-2002, 11:41 AM   #181
Tech Fanatic
 
shrekair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 946
Trader Rating: 9 (91%+)
Default

tc3 is generally quick to respong because the chassis is so stiff it's like and extra spring vs. and x-ray or tamiya
shrekair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2002, 09:45 PM   #182
Tech Apprentice
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 75
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default tfrahm

Tom,
From what I have been able to tell, you are right in your assumption about the TC3.
Are you running your batteries to the rear?
The bottom of my TC3 at the rear looks like it went through a cheese grater.
2 things that I have learned about driving outdoors is (1) Use a front one way and (2) run the batteries forward.
It balanced out the f/r weight transfer and I don't have to use springs as stiff as the front.
Another area that may help, is run a little heavier oil in the shocks.
#2 pistons w/ 50 or 60 wt. oil.
You mentioned the XXX-S Losi.
If you compare the feel of there shock, piston, oil package to a TC3, Losi runs 3 smaller holes with heavier oil.
I always read on there site about "pack" when the shock compresses.
You should know about that being a off road guy.
I'm still working on different shock packages for my TC3.
I seem to like the #3 piston w/ 50 to 60 wt. oil best.
We are running soft springs with it also. (Blue, Silver, Green)
I hope this helps you some.
I'm still working my way through some of this myself.
(BTW) Did you ever get your Peak Hellfire motors?

Take Care.
Tracy
doorman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2002, 10:17 PM   #183
Tech Regular
 
rcruv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 375
Default

That should sound strange but you don't know until you show us all your setup.
It will help if you post it in TC3 forum.

Quote:
Originally posted by tfrahm
OK -- I went back through this whole thread and didn't find a reference to a question I have, so here it is...

On the TC3 (and as far as I know, this applies ONLY to the TC3), there are two totally different "armed camps" in regard to spring balance front-to-rear....

Associated's manuals, etc. start with siffer springs on the front, and all the "official" setups have either stiffer front springs or the same springs all around...

However -- local racers (including ME) seem to agree with an old "How to Hook Up your TC3" article that was in Xtreme R/C a couple of years ago... We find that on the local parking lot track, the TC3 is "happier" and more "balanced" if the REAR springs are stiffer than the fronts...?

Is this some sort of "illusion" that has us fooled, or is there something unique about the TC3 suspension geometry that comes into play here? I know on my car that The "factory" style setups seem to be "tail happy" and very loose on corner entry, and push on corner exit, while the "backwards" setup is much more balanced, with more corner speed...

Whatsupwithat?
rcruv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 07:30 AM   #184
Tech Master
 
tfrahm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,026
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to tfrahm
"Backwards" setup?

OK -- Local HobbyTown parking lot races. Track is laid out on a concrete parking lot (broomed concrete surface -- abrasive, not very smooth, with ripples and seams, etc.). Track is NOT prepared in any way (not even swept off before racing, NO sugar water or "anything")...

Car is a TC3 upgraded to "team" specs (aluminum shocks, etc.)... Currently setup like:

Front:
40 wt LOSI oil, #2 piston, Gold Springs, top of shock in outer hole in standard front shock mount, 8.5mm Ground clearance, no sway bar, F+2 (stock), -1 deg camber, 0 toe-in...
Rear:
40wt LOSI oil, #2 piston, Gold Springs, top of shock in outer hole in standard rear shock mount, 7.5mm ground clearance, no sway bar, R+2+2, -1 deg camber...
Battery:
"Back"...
Body:
Either ProtoForm Stratus or ProtoForm 300M
NOTE1: Car is tweaked on MIP tweak station to perfectly centered bubble, and handling is balanced between left and right turns...
NOTE2: Chassis is "old" style, so I am not using droop screws, ride height is adjusted with internal limiters, which are "stock" as in the original kit...


This setup works "OK", but MY best setup has been Gold front, Red rear ("Backwards") -- the track record was set by a local racer with a TC3 running SILVER front springs and COPPER rear springs!

My best run this summer is 27/5:03 -- track record is the ONLY 28 lap run of the summer at 28/5:11... Track has one LONG straight around 100', and a total lap length of 285' on the "racing line"... Just to add to the "degree of dificulty", the parking lot has a pronounced slope for drainage, so some of the turns are decidedly "off-camber".

With a fresh set of H13's, my car is "on rails" with this setup, but I keep worrying that I am missing something. It does show a slight push at times with new tires, and has a tendancy to get "tricky" on worn tires (loose under braking, push under power) -- makes me think some part of the setup is "on the edge"...?
__________________
"If you cannot win, make the one ahead of you break the record."
Biff Racing Team #420 (Ah... The "good old days"...)
The local indoor Offroad Track: The RC Race Barn
TLR22-3.0, TLR22T-2.0, TLR22SCT-1.0
tfrahm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 07:54 AM   #185
Tech Master
 
Alvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Singapore, Jurong East
Posts: 1,654
Default

Quote:
loose under braking, push under power
Sounds like weight transfer issue? Probably need to run less droop in front (more on power steering) and rear (less off power steering)?
Alvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 08:06 AM   #186
Tech Master
 
tfrahm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,026
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to tfrahm
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Alvin
Sounds like weight transfer issue? Probably need to run less droop in front (more on power steering) and rear (less off power steering)?
Perhaps I'm showing my lack of experience with "droop", but if I reduce droop, won't I also reduce ground clearance...? If that is the case, I cannot do it -- the rough parking lot is already chewing up my chassis with the ride height at around 8mm...

Is this part of why the firm rear works well -- the stiffer rear shocks don't transfer weight like softer ones would?
__________________
"If you cannot win, make the one ahead of you break the record."
Biff Racing Team #420 (Ah... The "good old days"...)
The local indoor Offroad Track: The RC Race Barn
TLR22-3.0, TLR22T-2.0, TLR22SCT-1.0
tfrahm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 08:15 AM   #187
Tech Master
 
Alvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Singapore, Jurong East
Posts: 1,654
Default

hi tfram,
Let's say the car's ride height is 6mm at ride height, fully equipped, batteries strapped down. When I lift the front or rear or the car, if there is some droop the chassis will be able to lift up without the wheels lifting off.

So, you can have some amount of droop without limiting ride height. Hope I could make it clear!

For example, if you are running 2mm of droop in the front, with a ride height of 8mm. But when you lift the front of your car till just before either front wheels lift, your ride height gauge should measure the car's chassis now at 10mm. That's 2mm droop with 8mm ride height.

If for example you run 0mm droop in the front, there will be no suspension travel downwards; the moment you lift the chassis either wheel will lift up.

Edit: In such a case, if I get an on-power push, I cannot reduce droop further; the front suspension will be brought down via the droop screw.

In such cases, I will start to play with the roll centre of the car via the camber links.

Edit: I find that if I run very very little droop up front, off power steering is affected, no matter how I adjust, else it will snap-oversteer. Usually run my rear and front droop of a 1-2 mm difference, track dependant.

Stiffer rear shocks do transfer weight forward upon deceleration, but if you run insuffciient rear droop, the car's rear end is unable to lift up -> weight transfer forward is less -> possible understeer condition off power.

Do correct me if I am incorrect.

Regards,
Alvin

Last edited by Alvin; 07-02-2002 at 08:20 AM.
Alvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 08:55 AM   #188
Tech Master
 
imataquito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 1,279
Send a message via ICQ to imataquito Send a message via Yahoo to imataquito
Default

EXPERT ALVIN u got it all PERFECTLY right !
imataquito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 09:53 AM   #189
Tech Master
 
tfrahm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,026
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to tfrahm
Default

Alvin... OK, I think you helped...

With very stiff rear springs (even the Reds), the rear really has very little droop, as the springs are stiff enough that the chassis doesn't sag much when the battery, etc. are added -- thus there is very little downward movement. So part of the handling changes I had been attributing to the SPRINGS is actually a side effect of the reduced rear DROOP...? (Did I understand that correctly? -- I know that with stiff springs, the rear really has almost no "sag" under full weight...)

I'm beginning to see why guys are changing over to the new chassis and A-arms -- so that they can SEPARATE the "droop" adjustments from the spring/oil changes (and adjust ride height without tearing shocks apart to add/remove limiters).

In my case, changing the internal travel limiters is a pain, so I tend to leave them at stock... Then, to get ride height, I add preload to stiff springs, which has unanticipated side effects...

Droop screws would also help eliminate a "wild card" variable I've noticed... Due to different manufacturing tolerances and the effects of "wear and tear", A-arms, shock ends, suspension links, etc. all develop small, uneven amounts of "slack" or "play"... This is clear if you first tweak a sedan on the MIP tweak system, then try to tweak it like a pan car (by lifting the chassis off a flat surface with an xacto blade) -- even a "perfectly tweaked" (on the MIP) chassis will have the tires "lift" off the surface in an almost random sequence (depending on how much slop/play there is in each corner)...

Droop screws should take most (not all, but MOST) of this "play" out of the chassis...? Hmmm...
__________________
"If you cannot win, make the one ahead of you break the record."
Biff Racing Team #420 (Ah... The "good old days"...)
The local indoor Offroad Track: The RC Race Barn
TLR22-3.0, TLR22T-2.0, TLR22SCT-1.0
tfrahm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 09:59 AM   #190
Tech Master
 
tfrahm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,026
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to tfrahm
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Alvin
Usually run my rear and front droop of a 1-2 mm difference, track dependant.
Dumb question: ?Which end has the extra 2mm difference in droop?

Edit: Hmmm... I just checked the latest PDF manual for the TC3 (which includes droop settings -- something not in my old manual)... They show about 2mm less droop in the front than the rear (Front at droop setting of 6, rear setting of 4)... Hmmm...

Edit: Associated's droop settings are confusing at first, because a larger "droop number" actually means LESS down travel of the suspension arms...
__________________
"If you cannot win, make the one ahead of you break the record."
Biff Racing Team #420 (Ah... The "good old days"...)
The local indoor Offroad Track: The RC Race Barn
TLR22-3.0, TLR22T-2.0, TLR22SCT-1.0

Last edited by tfrahm; 07-02-2002 at 10:10 AM.
tfrahm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 12:24 PM   #191
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newville,Pa
Posts: 2,152
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Tom- you can use the new arms and droop screws on the old chassis, if you don't really need or can afford a new chassis yet. Also pick up the associated droop guage, at $2 the accuracy isn't important as long as you always use it to set all your droop.
__________________
G's RC Raceway- Best off-road track on the east coast...period!!!

Pitman for Team Dallas Austin...
IMPACTPLAYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2002, 09:15 PM   #192
Tech Master
 
tfrahm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,026
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to tfrahm
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by tfrahm
Edit: Hmmm... I just checked the latest PDF manual for the TC3 (which includes droop settings -- something not in my old manual)... They show about 2mm less droop in the front than the rear (Front at droop setting of 6, rear setting of 4)... Hmmm...
The plot thickens...

I just checked my TC3 (original pre-droop screw version), which has the orignally recommended 4 limiters in the front and 2 in the rear...

The only "Droop Guage" I could get at the LHS was a LOSI, but it works exactly the same as the Associated one...

All 4 corners of MY TC3 have a "droop" of 3 on this guage -- identical front to rear and side to side... NOT EVEN CLOSE to what then NOW recommend for droop with the droop screws... VERY INTERESTING....
__________________
"If you cannot win, make the one ahead of you break the record."
Biff Racing Team #420 (Ah... The "good old days"...)
The local indoor Offroad Track: The RC Race Barn
TLR22-3.0, TLR22T-2.0, TLR22SCT-1.0
tfrahm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2002, 12:46 AM   #193
Tech Master
 
imataquito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 1,279
Send a message via ICQ to imataquito Send a message via Yahoo to imataquito
Default

hm ....... so ...... whats the best setting soo far ???
i think its still having lots of droop in the back and a bit in front ...

( easier to control coz it has an understearing effect while on power ...and .. slight overstear off power or braking )

on my car setting are as follows... front 3 mm rear 2++ mm ..
tail happy but lots of stearing on power ..... i dont use brakes so no probs with the rear .....
tried 5 rear and 3 front ... = this makes it boring to play ... too easy no fun

i think almost all rc cras react the same way generally coz psysic's never change !
imataquito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2002, 04:56 AM   #194
Tech Master
 
Alvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Singapore, Jurong East
Posts: 1,654
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by tfrahm


Dumb question: ?Which end has the extra 2mm difference in droop?
IMHO, this is very track dependant. If I run at my TCS's outdoor track, which has a super super grip surface, the front will droop more to reduce oversteer. Also due to the extra traction, I run less droop on the rear 'cause I don't need that much weight transfer to the front, else oversteer off power condition will occur.

Else on my "home" track which is super low traction (I usually imagine it a 20:1 nitro:electric ratio haha) the rear will droop more than the front.

Also, this will depend if you are running anti dive or kickup up front. It is more or less a driver specific handling characteristic, though IMHO I feel it is better to be used on sweeping tracks. Argh rambling again.

Quote:
Originally posted by tfrahm

Edit: Hmmm... I just checked the latest PDF manual for the TC3 (which includes droop settings -- something not in my old manual)... They show about 2mm less droop in the front than the rear (Front at droop setting of 6, rear setting of 4)... Hmmm...
Well as mentioned before allowing the rear to droop more promotes greater weight transfer forward upon deceleration which translates into more off power steering. Up front running less droop means on-power there is less weight transfer to the rear; so you get more steering on power. Once again, the downstop imo is quite track dependant.


Quote:
Originally posted by tfrahm

Edit: Associated's droop settings are confusing at first, because a larger "droop number" actually means LESS down travel of the suspension arms...
I think their numbers are refering to those on the "downstop" gauge? Nowadays I use my downstop gauge simply to measure left/right droop are equal.
Alvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 02:36 PM   #195
Tech Elite
 
Boomer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Southern Cal - Claremont
Posts: 3,346
Send a message via ICQ to Boomer Send a message via AIM to Boomer
Default

MCrisp - I got your book and I really apreciate it - it is truly the first guide that simply, simply states what does what and what to do if you have certain problems.

The only thing I see is that it doesn't talk about traction rolling and what to do if you have that.

Great job !
__________________
-
RC10L2.5W - RC12.4 - RCNTC3(bmi) - TC4 (modded) - B44.2 - plus rent-a-rides! :D
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Driving techniques for faster corner speeds RHCranked Electric On-Road 20 01-15-2006 06:32 PM
carpet corner speed kyracer Electric On-Road 8 01-03-2006 01:20 PM
Corner Speed mutley001 Electric On-Road 9 08-23-2005 01:46 PM
On the Corner RC-HPI R/C Photography 0 08-02-2005 11:53 PM
Corner Speed Chandler Electric On-Road 1 09-21-2004 12:03 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 08:16 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net