R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-20-2011, 10:45 PM   #121
Tech Lord
 
wingracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,861
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pejota View Post
You won't have to spend so much time in the pits tuning a brushless motor like you would a brushed motor?
That part is true.
__________________
Sean. Certified speed crazed mowron.
Team Shepherd USA
www.ashfordhobby.com
wingracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 02:05 AM   #122
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
Sure....then you can start to talk about new chassis designs.....new light weight drive train parts....new electronics. It will never end....pick the lesser of the two....motors/escs are cheaper and easier to restrict.
I haven't thought it through, and it's probably a terrible idea that creates more problems than solutions. But, couldn't the packs stay the same size and be wired for double capacity and half the voltage. Keep the weight rules and such the same.

Finding ways to tame mod with milder motors and boost is looking better all the time.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 09:29 AM   #123
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 26
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default JMHO

This may sound a bit naive but trying to reel in all out racers and put restrictions on them for the sake of parody is like watching Olympic sprinters race without running shoes, no one is going to perform at the top level.
Personally I'm not the best racer but I travel across the border to Detroit and race at MSI with a close friend and he is a constant top three finisher in the 17.5 class. This track has always tried to please the majority of racers and lets them vote on issues like tires, esc timing ( spec ) and so on.
Now I'm happy to just drive my car around the track, bring up the rear, make new friends and continue to try to improve my personal bests, but the top racers continue to set amazing paces even with "SPEC" restictions put on them. Yes they always seem to run similar equipment, or the HOT motor of the week...... ( lately it has been the black can epic with the skull on it )
All out racing should be just that, let the big dogs run as fast as they want and if you are an occasional or hobby for fun racer like me and you can afford the equipment, it is a great way to see how far off the pace you are. Let the limitations be on the tires you run, the output of the battery, the dynamics of the esc, your ability to drive and the power delivery of the motor.
Isnt this how they sell cars? The car that wins on the track on sunday is the car you sell at the lot on monday? Doesnt anyone notice how everyone checks the winners car to see what motor or battery he wins with?
There is a place for "SPEC" racing but why in this class? We cant even get all racers on the same page for VTA. Dont get me wrong, I'm all for a separate class as "SPEC" but it should be separate.
JoeD. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 10:42 AM   #124
Tech Elite
 
Brian McGreevy's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,081
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Brian McGreevy Send a message via Yahoo to Brian McGreevy
Default

No matter the changes, people with money are always going to buy 5 of something to get the best. The people who have money, experience and skill are always going to be the ones who go the fastest. Yes, there should be a class where you don't need to do this to be fast. VTA is a good example of that. No matter what you do, with the rules currently in place, you can only go so fast. The rest is down to setup and driving. Let touring cars and 1/12th scale cars be fast.

Most of this debate comes down to the fact that people are unable to accept that they need to put more time and effort into understanding their car and getting track time, rather than the 0.1 worth that the new motor gives. The biggest difference at almost every level is how well your car is working. One of the reasons this happens is because most people with experience and knowledge don't take the time to help new people understand their cars. These new people look at the cars on track and their speed and automatically assume it must be horsepower. Then when they buy said horsepower and go only marginally faster, or not at all, they get frustrated, and sometimes quit.

I never got much coaching when I was starting as a teenager, and had to learn most of what I know myself. I love this hobby so I stuck with it and I've had a lot of success in 11 years. A good percentage of people coming in aren't committed like that in this video game, attention deficit, instant gratification age. With some coaching/mentoring from experienced racers, a lot of these people would stay. Most people enjoy learning things and want to be taught when it translates to fun.
__________________
USVTA Member #211

Support Formula SAE - get kids into engineering!
http://motorsports.illinois.edu/
Brian McGreevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 10:59 AM   #125
Tech Elite
 
Fred Hubbard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Inglewood, CA
Posts: 2,719
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy View Post
No matter the changes, people with money are always going to buy 5 of something to get the best. The people who have money, experience and skill are always going to be the ones who go the fastest. Yes, there should be a class where you don't need to do this to be fast. VTA is a good example of that. No matter what you do, with the rules currently in place, you can only go so fast. The rest is down to setup and driving. Let touring cars and 1/12th scale cars be fast.

Most of this debate comes down to the fact that people are unable to accept that they need to put more time and effort into understanding their car and getting track time, rather than the 0.1 worth that the new motor gives. The biggest difference at almost every level is how well your car is working. One of the reasons this happens is because most people with experience and knowledge don't take the time to help new people understand their cars. These new people look at the cars on track and their speed and automatically assume it must be horsepower. Then when they buy said horsepower and go only marginally faster, or not at all, they get frustrated, and sometimes quit.

I never got much coaching when I was starting as a teenager, and had to learn most of what I know myself. I love this hobby so I stuck with it and I've had a lot of success in 11 years. A good percentage of people coming in aren't committed like that in this video game, attention deficit, instant gratification age. With some coaching/mentoring from experienced racers, a lot of these people would stay. Most people enjoy learning things and want to be taught when it translates to fun.
+1
__________________
Goodwine Racing - RC America - XRAY - HUDY - Sanwa - Motiv - GravityRC - BN Racing
Fred Hubbard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 11:01 AM   #126
Tech Master
 
PitNamedGordie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Highwood, IL
Posts: 1,789
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to PitNamedGordie Send a message via Yahoo to PitNamedGordie
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy View Post
No matter the changes, people with money are always going to buy 5 of something to get the best. The people who have money, experience and skill are always going to be the ones who go the fastest. Yes, there should be a class where you don't need to do this to be fast. VTA is a good example of that. No matter what you do, with the rules currently in place, you can only go so fast. The rest is down to setup and driving. Let touring cars and 1/12th scale cars be fast.

Most of this debate comes down to the fact that people are unable to accept that they need to put more time and effort into understanding their car and getting track time, rather than the 0.1 worth that the new motor gives. The biggest difference at almost every level is how well your car is working. One of the reasons this happens is because most people with experience and knowledge don't take the time to help new people understand their cars. These new people look at the cars on track and their speed and automatically assume it must be horsepower. Then when they buy said horsepower and go only marginally faster, or not at all, they get frustrated, and sometimes quit.

I never got much coaching when I was starting as a teenager, and had to learn most of what I know myself. I love this hobby so I stuck with it and I've had a lot of success in 11 years. A good percentage of people coming in aren't committed like that in this video game, attention deficit, instant gratification age. With some coaching/mentoring from experienced racers, a lot of these people would stay. Most people enjoy learning things and want to be taught when it translates to fun.
Post of the day.
__________________
☆ The Track @ Harbor Hobbies ☆ www.harbor-hobby.net ☆
PitNamedGordie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 12:38 PM   #127
Tech Master
 
miller tyme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,712
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

WOW I'm off line for a bit and I miss 9+pages!!!!!!!

Brian McGeevy Sums it up pretty well. I've been into RC since the mid 80's. The biggest difference now is not the speed or merely the cost. The difference is a rank newbie can now go into a shop/track buy the fastest stuff in the shelf and go race, tear everything up, get frustrated and quit.

Two things come to mind when I remember my early day's,
1)novice 2)learn to be fast.

No I could not run stock till I earned my way out of Novice. Track rules!
It was also accepted that new guys just simply did not buy the fastest 13 turn mod motor and 7 cell battery. You started in stock configuration, learned how to tune brushed motors and set-up chassis, hell it was after all a hobby to spend time on. As a high school-er with good grades I spent 5-7 hours a night rebuilding shocks, filing diff gears, sorting cells, cleaning motors. End result, with a father teaching me the value of a dollar (I paid for most of my RC stuff or used his extras) I learned to make speed and the results were very good.

So question is why does the new guy off the street who started last week, earn the right to run stock at the National level......or more importantly earn the right, by virtue of ROAR wanting to cater to them, to influence what my stock rules should be.

Bring back novice, when the new guy ask questions explain the process of novice to stock and the learning curve, sure we may not get as many newbies but I bet the percentage retained for years to come will be huge.
Use this new spec motor 17.5 or 21.5 and Blinky mode as novice, but don't force me to run with Mike Dumas or Josh Cyrul because blinky mode 1/12th 0 timed motor is like watching paint dry, and if I feel I HAVE to run mod then the result may be the same.....another racer quits. (that's an example...I actually am trying mod )
__________________
Ken Miller
RCTarget - Capricorn - Pro Level RC - MAX Power - Maxima Fuel - EA Motorsorts - TQ Wire

LONG LIVE OPEN MODIFIED
miller tyme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 01:28 PM   #128
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 26
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default novices

I agree with Ken that there should be dues to pay with novices to the hobby but I think that pretty well gets sorted out by qualifiers right? Nothing irks me more than seeing that new kid buy himself a new ride and come to the track 3 or 4 times and kick my butt!!!! Butt thats where driving talent separates us, some have it, and some have a lot of it. I was not blessed with the greatest hand eye coordination but I get by well enough to hit the C or D mains. I get a lot of fun out of it but thats where I'm at. Newer guys to the scene should not be held back if they simply possess more driving talent than you. the qualifiers sort that out mostly no matter what the class requires for equipment ie: the motors esc battery and so on.
The ease of working with lipos and brushless motors should attract and retain more new drivers than the difficult tasks of cycling nimhs and repairing brushed motors IMO.;
JoeD. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 01:37 PM   #129
Team EAM
 
EAMotorsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 9,158
Trader Rating: 79 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to EAMotorsports
Default

I think there is a place for the slower class.....but not to replace our Middle ground we have now. There should be a "Stock", "Super or Expert Stock" and Modified. Just as it is now but maybe slow the true stock class down a little more to give some more diversity between the classes and a place for those less skilled or experienced guys to compete and improve themselves without tearing theirs or others cars up.

All the talk seems to be for TC as some "THINK" that TC is in a horrible state right now and it should be completely changed up. Myself I dont see it in that bad of shape but actually improving right now compared to where it was a year ago. Its not what it was 3 years ago but it has bottomed out and seems to be making a turn around....HOPEFULLY some wont do anything stupid and completely destroy it in the next few months.

Lets have some stability for a few years, work on solidifying some rules and continue to build instead of scratch everything and start over. This spec type motor will be the start of solidifying some good rules for a true stock class (novice, sportsman, production, etc) and will help introduce some ideas to solidify the other motor rules to keep some of the losers out there and a few dishonest crooked "Tuners" that feel the need to re-wind motors and cheat.

EA
__________________
Contact Us
Team EAM, Our Facebook
Team EAM | Xray | RCAmerica | Hudy | APEX Raceway and Hobbies | RC Mission | Killer Concepts | AVID | Hobbywing.
EAMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 01:37 PM   #130
Tech Elite
 
Brian McGreevy's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,081
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Brian McGreevy Send a message via Yahoo to Brian McGreevy
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeD. View Post
I agree with Ken that there should be dues to pay with novices to the hobby but I think that pretty well gets sorted out by qualifiers right? Nothing irks me more than seeing that new kid buy himself a new ride and come to the track 3 or 4 times and kick my butt!!!! Butt thats where driving talent separates us, some have it, and some have a lot of it. I was not blessed with the greatest hand eye coordination but I get by well enough to hit the C or D mains. I get a lot of fun out of it but thats where I'm at. Newer guys to the scene should not be held back if they simply possess more driving talent than you. the qualifiers sort that out mostly no matter what the class requires for equipment ie: the motors esc battery and so on.
The ease of working with lipos and brushless motors should attract and retain more new drivers than the difficult tasks of cycling nimhs and repairing brushed motors IMO.;
Yes, but to Ken's point, if they are that talented straight off, then after a race weekend or two the race director/track owner would let them move up to a more challenging class. Also, by letting new guys run in the faster class, the ones who have a lot of work to do still sometimes end up ruining the race of others. The new guy feels bad for doing it, and the other guy is frustrated because his race was messed up. New guy also doesn't have fun.
__________________
USVTA Member #211

Support Formula SAE - get kids into engineering!
http://motorsports.illinois.edu/
Brian McGreevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 01:44 PM   #131
Tech Champion
 
skypilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,524
Trader Rating: 14 (100%+)
Default

It my opinion that roar is looking at making the new racer happy so he might attend a National. Many say well he's new he hasn't earned the right to go to nationals. Problem is. Those that have earned the right aren't going. So turn outs are down and because turn outs are down no one goes. And its just not the racer that's not happy. I tell the story of why I didn't use to do big races. Didn't see much point in going to big race to race the local mod drivers that drop down to stock at big races. No need to spend hundreds to get my ass handed to me by the same guys that do it at home for 10 bucks. Fix that issue and attendance will go up. That's where these spec motors and classes come in. Our egos just won't let sign up for those classes leaving them open for the less experienced racer. Which will get then to come to a big race. That's my opinion on what these motors and classes are geared for.

Having said that. I do go to big races and run whatever now and generally don't care how I finish I'm there for the fun and experience.
__________________
semi retired..
skypilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 02:13 PM   #132
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 26
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default not always

[QUOTE=Brian McGreevy;8687474] Also, by letting new guys run in the faster class, the ones who have a lot of work to do still sometimes end up ruining the race of others.

Isnt this why we have qualifiers that set up the mains? Even novice drivers can make a good qualifier and gets put into the B main because he drove the right to be there, its not just a hat draw!! Why do you assume the new guy is ruining it for the others? Proper race etiquate will be acquired as he races with the vets, as long as they instruct him properly. Be nice to the new guy. He is watching the race veterans carefully and wants to be like them, and they should be congratulated when they beat you fair and square.
Spec motors will take away any advantage the vet has with experience in finding good motors etc. and likely close the gap in time for the rookie with driving talent to catch up.
JoeD. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 02:25 PM   #133
Tech Elite
 
Brian McGreevy's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,081
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Brian McGreevy Send a message via Yahoo to Brian McGreevy
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeD. View Post
Proper race etiquate will be acquired as he races with the vets, as long as they instruct him properly. Be nice to the new guy. He is watching the race veterans carefully
Those are some big assumptions that are most likely NOT happening. I still see plenty of people who have raced for years that don't know how to let faster people pass in IFMAR-style qualifying, or don't know how to pass without blowing others out. This was my point in my earlier post, that veterans need to step up and help the new guys and actually teach them these things. It's also the race director's responsibility to teach them how to race and to penalize when appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeD. View Post
Spec motors will take away any advantage the vet has with experience in finding good motors etc. and likely close the gap in time for the rookie with driving talent to catch up.
No, not really. If anything it will make it more difficult because the rookie will feel he has to buy 5-6 motors to find a good one rather than a tuning rotor. This costs money. Even if you can still swap the rotor, the rookie doesn't have a gauss gauge. These type of spec motors won't change much at the local level, might make it better at the national level as a handout.
__________________
USVTA Member #211

Support Formula SAE - get kids into engineering!
http://motorsports.illinois.edu/
Brian McGreevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 03:33 PM   #134
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,002
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

On a club level, I think this is a good idea.

At least Trinity offers this option as a possible solution.

Track owners can choose to try this method out to see if this will grow the hobby.

Or they can choose not to.

But at least there is a choice.



Now if someone could do something about the insane cost of TC tires.
__________________
www.rccartips.com
www.f1rccars.com
www.f1rcclub.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/rccartips/
http://www.facebook.com/RCCarTipsFan

Last edited by rccartips; 02-21-2011 at 04:21 PM.
rccartips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 03:35 PM   #135
Team EAM
 
EAMotorsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 9,158
Trader Rating: 79 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to EAMotorsports
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rccartips View Post
Now if someone could do something about the insane cost of TC tires.
What type of tires are you using that are expensive? We use Jaco blues at our track and are sold for 30.00 and the track makes good money at that and they last the racers forever on our track. The cost of tires has never been cheaper than they are now IMO.

EA
__________________
Contact Us
Team EAM, Our Facebook
Team EAM | Xray | RCAmerica | Hudy | APEX Raceway and Hobbies | RC Mission | Killer Concepts | AVID | Hobbywing.
EAMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
World GT Club Racing - To spec or not to spec is the question???? Mr. McGoo Electric On-Road 722 11-01-2014 07:05 AM
Traxxas Slash spec class racing at Ryde in 2009 and beyond Roman Australian Racing 2293 02-20-2013 06:18 AM
U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing squarehead Electric On-Road 14187 03-21-2012 02:43 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 02:46 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net