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Old 02-18-2011, 12:38 PM   #76
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Yep the reason I never win is because of the motor.....

As soon as everybody has to run a spec/sealed/non-rebuildable motor I can be world champ!

Where's Rick when you need him?
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:39 PM   #77
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You wouldn't need to make a module that limited it, there is alerady one in the car, the ESC.
All this hacking stuff drives me nuts. Does ANYONE have the technical skill required to do this in RC? Seriously. And don't say manufacturers will do it for team guys, because if they would do it, i'm sure they are already cheating!
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:47 PM   #78
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Why makes seal motors , Rev limiters , power modules ?

Instead just call it open stock , any motor acceptable...

Then if you need a faster motor ?
You can change out the slow motor for a faster motor ....

Think of It !

Stock spec racing would finally be fair and equal ....
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:57 PM   #79
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This topic has predictably made the turn I thought it would.

My stance is still simple. We are RACING. I've been racing things of all sort for over 2 decades, and they all have one thing in common: racing is expensive.

If you're determined to have the best equipment that will give you the greatest chance of victory, no amount of rules is going to curb the cost.

I see plenty of people that want to slow the cars down to make things more even, even under the guise of making everything more fair, more about setup and driving, and even under the argument that it will make racing cheaper! And I see a large portion of those same people trading around ESCs to find the one that runs their motors cooler, so they can add more gear to go FASTER!

Call me heartless, but I race spec wind boosted classes, my finishes aren't where I want them to be, and if my car is too fast and I crash, I slow down. The difference between boosted and non, when someone makes a mistake in boosted, there's enough power to pass quickly and cleanly, without bouncing your car off that sideways car and then turning into a plinko disc bouncing off the rest of the cars in line right on your bumper.

For me, the racing may be closer in non-boosted classes, but it seems to be cleaner in boosted.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:02 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by HarryLeach View Post
For me, the racing may be closer in non-boosted classes, but it seems to be cleaner in boosted.

Preach on!
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:04 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil View Post
This would really be cool "IF" other manufacturers decide they want to play too. Otherwise this discussion is a waste of O2.

Put some motor company gurus in a conference call, get them to set a spec for all. Write it down somewhere and go from there.

Good luck guys, I can't wait!
Hey Art,

This is exactly what ROAR has been doing the last several months and your just begining to see the results of these discussions.

The RPM limiting device is another idea which is under review as well.

There is a LOT going on and even more thought going into decisions.

EPIC/Trinity has taken a gamble and I applaud them for offering this motor.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:14 PM   #82
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Really? I think after 25+ National Titles.......I can tell you the voodoo of motors was blown WAY out of proportion. If you wanna argue less, maintainence, I'lll give you that.

Timed brushes are a load of crap.....yes static timing is increased, but it prevents the coil from being charged longer with overlap.....you wash out any gain you would of got from the extra timing...

Novaktwo, yeah....hacker was there with totally acceptable motors....Bob was smart though, got the rules made to eliminate them...besides, I know you spent all that money on stuff, but I am sure you made it all back for the first couple of years when all the customers were doing R&D for ya with thermaling motors that they were then charged to replace most of the time.....almost reminds me of when they banned Silicone implants....poor girls had to pay to have them removed and then new ones.....such a racket!

We already have people buying lots of stators and rotors....yer never gonna stop the guys with money from buying more and more stuff to find the fast one.....the purpose of this motor is to prevent most of the cheating we currently see.....along with removing some of the perceived complications of tuning brushless.....in theory, they should last longer too with reduced timing and such...

JR007, if a kid in his mom's basement can hack the iphone, paypal, or windows 7.....I am sure the high end encryption placed on speed controls won't be too hard....just give it time....

The RPM limiter is an interesting idea....

Later EddieO



Quote:
Originally Posted by mupchu View Post
I don't know where you raced but timed brushes were a reality, as were magnet zappers, com twisting and the like.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:18 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
Timed brushes are a load of crap.....yes static timing is increased, but it prevents the coil from being charged longer with overlap.....you wash out any gain you would of got from the extra timing...
I know what you are talking about but I don't think you know what I'm talking about when I say timed brush. My way not only increases timing, it will also increase overlap slightly.

Other than that, I actually agree with you. Brushed motors weren't all that bad, but I think I prefer brushless.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:22 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
How about an inexpensive, tamper-proof, RPM Limiter module?

If limiting the motor's RPM is the goal, there's no need for a separate no-timing motor.
In Electric RC airplane racing...F5D....they use an energy limiter. Once they use up their allowed amount of "Watts" then the device cuts off the power to the motor. This is already in place for airplane guys to use so why cant it be adopted to RC cars if people really want this. This way you can use any motor or ESC but you are limited by the total Watts you can use in the run. I dont know if this can be used for cars or not but it would be a place to start if you wanted to really look into something like this.

http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/sys...lectric_11.pdf

5.5.1.4 Energy Limiter
In classes where an energy limit is defined an energy limiter device must be used. The energy
limiter cuts off the motor when the given energy limit is reached. The energy limiter is located in
the electric circuit between the battery and the motor. The interruption must either persist
permanently or for a defined period of time.
5.5.1.5 Procedure for Limiter Checking
a. The general procedure of limiter checking follows B.17. in Section 4B, General Rules for
International Contests.
b. The check shall be carried out immediately after landing. All limiters/loggers shall be tested
using the same method.
c. The organiser will check if the limiter is correctly connected to RX, LiPo pack and ESC. There
must not be any type of "jumper" present in the RX cable or on the current sensor.
d. The limiter in each model should be provided with cables and 6 mm connectors, so that it can
easily be checked in series with the checking system. In cases where the limiter device has
other types of connectors, the competitor must provide adapters to match the 6 mm
connectors used by the organiser.
e. JR/Futaba connectors should be provided on the limiter, or adapters, so that the receiver
output and ESC input connections can be made to the test unit.
f. A variable current load should be used, simulating, as far as possible, a typical flight.
g. The organiser shall use SM UniLog or similar devices as energy counters for measurements in
each category.
h. A tolerance of 2% on the measurement of the limit is permitted.
i. The competitor may check his limiters prior to and during the contest, but he must provide a fully
charged lithium battery as a power source.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:28 PM   #85
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Well, moving the hoods to sit the brush farther ahead is considered cheating. Aligning the hoods is legal, but to attempt to shift the hood so the brush sits ahead is against the modification rules...

Timing only works one way.....there is nt other theory on it.

How you increase overlap without either A reducing the size of the comm (which reduces timing btw) and B increasing the size of the brush.......I dunno. Basic Physics..


The definition of a timed brush is removing the trailing or leading edge to alter static timing....

Later EddieO
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
Well, moving the hoods to sit the brush farther ahead is considered cheating. Aligning the hoods is legal, but to attempt to shift the hood so the brush sits ahead is against the modification rules...

Timing only works one way.....there is nt other theory on it.

How you increase overlap without either A reducing the size of the comm (which reduces timing btw) and B increasing the size of the brush.......I dunno. Basic Physics..


The definition of a timed brush is removing the trailing or leading edge to alter static timing....

Later EddieO
There is another way. Seriously, I've done it and I didn't invent it either. A company actually sold it once but their way didn't work so well. I did my own version. The hoods were not touched, the brush was still full faced.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:31 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR007 View Post
Does ANYONE have the technical skill required to do this in RC? Seriously.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketron View Post
Hey Art,

This is exactly what ROAR has been doing the last several months and your just begining to see the results of these discussions.

The RPM limiting device is another idea which is under review as well.

There is a LOT going on and even more thought going into decisions.

EPIC/Trinity has taken a gamble and I applaud them for offering this motor.
Hi Ron,

It would really be nice if this is true as the whole spec thing has gotten out of hand. Besides, most clubs don't have inductance meters and having a motor that eliminates many of the "variables" that people are playing with now. Will I see you at the Reedy?

Now if they would only do something about mod. (gasp!)

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Old 02-18-2011, 02:01 PM   #88
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This is a much better idea than the whole spec ESC idea that was/is floating around. Also, there needs to be competition so it would also have to be open to other manufacturers. But this will not discourage the whole "motor of the week" type mentality...in fact having multiple manufacturers involved would encourage that rather than discourage it. However, without the competition prices will never get down to what they need to be in order to make stock racing work again (if it ever really did).
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:04 PM   #89
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We are developing limiters (NovaLimit...)--starting with 17.5T motors. This option would allow racers to run any brand 17.5T motor they already own---just adding the module for "Spec" racing. I will start a separate thread about this module.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace View Post
I talked about this with some people at dinner one night at the Birds. I thint it might actually be the best option but until someone makes one and puts it to the test its just good in theory.

IT would allow everyone to tune somewhat with timing on the motor and change how the power comes on but it would limit the total amount of power. Great in theory but until its tested its just that a theory.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:42 PM   #90
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Well, Hopefully yer not letting the same guy who calibrated the inductance meter for stators calibrate the RPM sensor......wouldn't want a snowbirds 2008 all over again...

Later EddieO

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
We are developing limiters (NovaLimit...)--starting with 17.5T motors. This option would allow racers to run any brand 17.5T motor they already own---just adding the module for "Spec" racing. I will start a separate thread about this module.
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