R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-18-2011, 07:27 AM   #46
Tech Elite
 
ChrisP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Shelby Twp, MI
Posts: 2,046
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
In essence, that's similar to what ROAR is considering for the 2012 spec. We need stock motors again. When we contacted them regarding our discussion, they indicated that they were already working on something similar. IMHO, this is to brushless what the P2K and Chameleon motors were to brushed motor racing, which is something that I think is needed to bring some parity back to stock class racing.
What happens when the P2K2, the Monster, the Epic Stock, the Cobalt, etc, etc, etc get released on ongoing intervals slowly changing or ratcheting up performance...making people buy new motors for the various tuning benefits provided?

What about the businesses (as EA alluded to) where services will be provided testing stators, rotors, etc for the optimum configurations and dyno testing to provide motors with (or perception of)just that little something extra?

People seem to forget that brushed racing had timing variations in the form of brush cutting. There was additional complexity in the form of brush compounds (and even good and bad batches within those compounds), spring rates, magnet zapping, dyno tuning, etc....not to mention the requirements of regular maintenance...

The biggest difference was that people could buy all of these services instead of needing to understand them on their own.

BL racing (even with adjustable timing on motors and fully programmable ESCs) still has less complexity (and lower cost of support equipment) than brushed, however, it isn't yet understood to the same level.

I agree that the concept of having a SPEC motor to remove some of the variables is a good concept, however, from a marketing and production standpoint the past has shown that these SPEC motors will continue to change and evolve bringing us back to the motor of the week and placing greater emphasis on the battery of the week, etc...

Just my $.02.
ChrisP is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 07:30 AM   #47
Tech Elite
 
L.Fairtrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 3,773
Trader Rating: 23 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to L.Fairtrace
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
What happens when the P2K2, the Monster, the Epic Stock, the Cobalt, etc, etc, etc get released on ongoing intervals slowly changing or ratcheting up performance...making people buy new motors for the various tuning benefits provided?

What about the businesses (as EA alluded to) where services will be provided testing stators, rotors, etc for the optimum configurations and dyno testing to provide motors with (or perception of)just that little something extra?

People seem to forget that brushed racing had timing variations in the form of brush cutting. There was additional complexity in the form of brush compounds (and even good and bad batches within those compounds), spring rates, magnet zapping, dyno tuning, etc....not to mention the requirements of regular maintenance...

The biggest difference was that people could buy all of these services instead of needing to understand them on their own.

BL racing (even with adjustable timing on motors and fully programmable ESCs) still has less complexity (and lower cost of support equipment) than brushed, however, it isn't yet understood to the same level.

I agree that the concept of having a SPEC motor to remove some of the variables is a good concept, however, from a marketing and production standpoint the past has shown that these SPEC motors will continue to change and evolve bringing us back to the motor of the week and placing greater emphasis on the battery of the week, etc...

Just my $.02.
So basically same thing as now only people wont be able to handwind stators to get the absolute lowest inductance allowed by the rules.
__________________
Awesomatix USA - EaMotorsports - RocheUSA - MonTech - Sanwa - BSR Racing Tires - TQ Wire - Solaris Racing Tires - Side Piece Racing

180 and 360 Raceway. Best on the East Coast. Take your pick
L.Fairtrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 07:33 AM   #48
Tech Champion
 
snoopyrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tunnel Hill GA
Posts: 5,046
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

The concept of focusing on your set up and your line instead of building a car that just gets onto it's roof faster, that I get. I just didnt realize that the little bit of timing on the endbell made that much differrence. I always figured that the factory set it at its max efficiency and left it there. If I need more torque then I gear down. I guess I am still thinking like a brushed driver.

If these turn out to be slower than old 27t brushed then I guess it could all evolve a turn or two. Maybe a 16.5? I mean if we are talking about handout brushless motors anyway then why not have the wind of your choice. Its in the entry fee.
__________________
www.battlefieldraceway.com Racing videos at http://www.youtube.com/snoopyrc
snoopyrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 07:39 AM   #49
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

ChrisP True but isn't your statement based on whether rules will ALLOW that sort of thing to happen ?? Granted, I can't say how things will be teched appropriately but a BL motor isn't the same as a Brushed motor. Part of the marketing for any 'tuner" would be to advertise the fact with their name all over it. Somehow I don't think to many of these folks would bother if that situation isn't allowed. In other words...if the rules saythe motor has to have the original manufacturers label...the motor loses much of it's value to a tuner company. Maybe I'm wrong.
That's been part of the problem and I think the "spec" motor is a progressive step forward. But it has to be enforced at the racing level. In my mind it's similar to using the can motor in TCS. Yes, it too can be tweaked but it isn't widely done and it can be teched.
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 07:45 AM   #50
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: NY/FL
Posts: 3,376
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyrc View Post
The concept of focusing on your set up and your line instead of building a car that just gets onto it's roof faster, that I get. I just didnt realize that the little bit of timing on the endbell made that much differrence. I always figured that the factory set it at its max efficiency and left it there. If I need more torque then I gear down. I guess I am still thinking like a brushed driver.

If these turn out to be slower than old 27t brushed then I guess it could all evolve a turn or two. Maybe a 16.5? I mean if we are talking about handout brushless motors anyway then why not have the wind of your choice. Its in the entry fee.
Snoop, You and folks like me are the exception unfortunately. You've seen the discussions in VTA about changing the timing on the Ballistic. Overall, it seems senseless for the potential gain vs. the apparent downfall of blowing a motor because you tweaked it and didn't gear it appropriately.
I suppose we won't know what the performance level of the locked timing motors is until somebody reports it.Honestly I think that would have been a good thing to have BEFORE the announcement of it's availability.
Evoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 07:47 AM   #51
Tech Elite
 
L.Fairtrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 3,773
Trader Rating: 23 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to L.Fairtrace
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyrc View Post
The concept of focusing on your set up and your line instead of building a car that just gets onto it's roof faster, that I get. I just didnt realize that the little bit of timing on the endbell made that much differrence. I always figured that the factory set it at its max efficiency and left it there. If I need more torque then I gear down. I guess I am still thinking like a brushed driver.

If these turn out to be slower than old 27t brushed then I guess it could all evolve a turn or two. Maybe a 16.5? I mean if we are talking about handout brushless motors anyway then why not have the wind of your choice. Its in the entry fee.
I think we have a long way to go to make 17.5 unboosted slower than 27 turn.

If you take a look at the videos from vegas 2005-7 you'll see how slow those cars were. We're talking 21.5 unboosted speed.
__________________
Awesomatix USA - EaMotorsports - RocheUSA - MonTech - Sanwa - BSR Racing Tires - TQ Wire - Solaris Racing Tires - Side Piece Racing

180 and 360 Raceway. Best on the East Coast. Take your pick
L.Fairtrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:07 AM   #52
Tech Master
 
Dave Bowser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,427
Trader Rating: 51 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Now get me in a GM car and I can make anything work on that! LOL

EA
can you make an automatic transmission work in a 2012 ZL1 ?

btw i like the idea of the motor/class
__________________
RCAmerica, X-Ray, Hudy, Ko Propo, Protoform, PRS, Jaco, JConcepts, SXT, RC3 Grafix, Kool-Aid, P-Nut, NEXT, www.SuperiorHobbies.com

We're going to skate to one song and one song only!
Dave Bowser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:11 AM   #53
Tech Champion
 
snoopyrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tunnel Hill GA
Posts: 5,046
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Now get me in a GM car and I can make anything work on that! LOL

EA
Can you get someone to make me a brushless conversion for a 94 Camaro?
__________________
www.battlefieldraceway.com Racing videos at http://www.youtube.com/snoopyrc
snoopyrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:13 AM   #54
Tech Champion
 
hanulec's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: @ the post office
Posts: 8,560
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
I'm curious why you think this has anything to do with this subject ? A 21.5 and 25.5 are both slower than a 17.5 irregardless of timing, boost, or voodoo magic. There ARE classes , and more importantly DRIVERS who can benefit from ,or just plain enjoy, racing at slower speeds even lower than what some refer to as "STOCK" speeds. Hell, 27t brushed was to fast for many. VTA and GT were both created with the idea to simplify, slow down and make less expensive classes for the largest group of RC'ers that exist. That's the people we have YET to get into the hobby. Continual promotion of rc car racing as some elitist, high budget , specialized skill hobby will keep it exactly where it's at. Minimal growth...IF ANY.
making slower motors doesn't keep things equal (especially when you talk about the hyper-competitive racing scenes). money can always make slower motors quicker. there are two things good about this concept --

#1 a locked end bell motor design that helps prevent people from cheating/optimizing things by tweaking the sensor board

#2 a can that prevents people from rewinding the stator will keep things equal.

i really hope we can get this style of motor pushed as a standard. otherwise -- i think the only way to have a true stock race (at a motor event) is to have sealed, hand out motors like IIC does for the Amateur class.
__________________
FJ / ROAR #2-122945 / MaxRotation FPV Drone Racing / [email protected] Awesomatix USA / Wild Turbo Fan / Mon-Tech Racing / RocheRC USA / Side Piece /
LRP / John's BSR Tires / TeamEAM / TQ Wire / R1 / Team Scream / PCR / MIX
RacerLog wiki Awesomatix A700 / 2wd offroad 4 life
hanulec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:23 AM   #55
Tech Addict
 
Gone Racin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 614
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Hello Racers, Spec racing is solid with the talent in the class. the last to Big spec races where won on Driving and setup more than esc or motor. I have seen it. my son dident have the fastest car at either race.Clevelend and Birds really great races. lets just race without changes for awhile. Ron Harrison,
Gone Racin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:24 AM   #56
Tech Master
 
jag88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,075
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
What happens when the P2K2, the Monster, the Epic Stock, the Cobalt, etc, etc, etc get released on ongoing intervals slowly changing or ratcheting up performance...making people buy new motors for the various tuning benefits provided?

What about the businesses (as EA alluded to) where services will be provided testing stators, rotors, etc for the optimum configurations and dyno testing to provide motors with (or perception of)just that little something extra?

People seem to forget that brushed racing had timing variations in the form of brush cutting. There was additional complexity in the form of brush compounds (and even good and bad batches within those compounds), spring rates, magnet zapping, dyno tuning, etc....not to mention the requirements of regular maintenance...

The biggest difference was that people could buy all of these services instead of needing to understand them on their own.





BL racing (even with adjustable timing on motors and fully programmable ESCs) still has less complexity (and lower cost of support equipment) than brushed, however, it isn't yet understood to the same level.

I agree that the concept of having a SPEC motor to remove some of the variables is a good concept, however, from a marketing and production standpoint the past has shown that these SPEC motors will continue to change and evolve bringing us back to the motor of the week and placing greater emphasis on the battery of the week, etc...

Just my $.02.


nicely said, a BIG +1 !
jag88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:26 AM   #57
Tech Champion
 
snoopyrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tunnel Hill GA
Posts: 5,046
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace View Post
I think we have a long way to go to make 17.5 unboosted slower than 27 turn.

If you take a look at the videos from vegas 2005-7 you'll see how slow those cars were. We're talking 21.5 unboosted speed.
Copy that. Its one of those things that you get lost on until you get a good point of reference.

I would love to see electronics so affordable that it would not be out of line to have a handout ESC/motor combo. Ahem at large races. If you could get it all for $75- 80 that wouldnt be so bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
making slower motors doesn't keep things equal (especially when you talk about the hyper-competitive racing scenes). money can always make slower motors quicker. there are two things good about this concept --

#1 a locked end bell motor design that helps prevent people from cheating/optimizing things by tweaking the sensor board

#2 a can that prevents people from rewinding the stator will keep things equal.

i really hope we can get this style of motor pushed as a standard. otherwise -- i think the only way to have a true stock race (at a motor event) is to have sealed, hand out motors like IIC does for the Amateur class.
#1 I am not sure how they are getting at tamper resistant timing but it looks like you can get it open to clean it out.

#2 Does the Can prevent people from rewinding the stator?
__________________
www.battlefieldraceway.com Racing videos at http://www.youtube.com/snoopyrc
snoopyrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:54 AM   #58
Tech Master
 
billjacobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1,264
Trader Rating: 55 (100%+)
Default aahhh trinity is trying to be relevant once more

Is this the same company that released a new motor of the week/month for years, causing everyone to buy a new motor to be competitive?

Is this the same company that released junk products and then blamed everyone but themselves when they failed, and ignored you if you had a problem?

Is this the same company that tried to do everything it could to put off the switch to brushless and lipo?

Ding, Ding, Ding, I think it is!!

What would be the point of a spec motor? Oh, that's right, to stop the madness, and make everyone suck at trinity's teet once more.

Trinity has a well deserved and poor reputation in r/c because of all of the stuff they did in the past. They don't deserve and shouldn't get a second chance.

At our local track, we run open motor, esc, and battery rules. The best part is, you don't need boost if you are running a 10.5 or lower. Everyone has a good time and all is well. Trying to level the playing field once more will only get you more of the same, declining participation.

I for one, love my lrp and tekin esc's (tekin for the size, lrp for the smoothness) and my novak ballistic motors (best design out there by far, although I do like the lrp x12 soldering posts, but having vent holes in a brushless motor defeats one of the benefits of brushless
motors, being maintenance free.)

Trinity motors are usually the ones that overheat, have board failures, etc. They are fast, but they don't seem to last. Do you really want more of this?
billjacobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 09:26 AM   #59
Tech Master
 
PitNamedGordie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Highwood, IL
Posts: 1,789
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to PitNamedGordie Send a message via Yahoo to PitNamedGordie
Default

OK...I've been thinking (meaning board at work) and wouldn't it be MUCH easier for Trinity or ANY manufacturer just to release an end bell that we can retrofit onto our existing motors that sets timing to true zero? That would 1) make it easier for racers to move to a locked timing class if we need to, and 2) we won't be out the $70 to $90 dollars to buy a new motor. It's a much cheaper, quicker solution to the issue (if it is really an issue). Just applying a little Occam's razor...
__________________
☆ The Track @ Harbor Hobbies ☆ www.harbor-hobby.net ☆
PitNamedGordie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 09:35 AM   #60
Tech Elite
 
L.Fairtrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 3,773
Trader Rating: 23 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to L.Fairtrace
Default

Personally I would like to see sealed locked motors that you cannot cherry pick rotors and stators and combine them

This will eliminate the advantage ANYONE could have in buying a bunch of motors to "make" the best one.
__________________
Awesomatix USA - EaMotorsports - RocheUSA - MonTech - Sanwa - BSR Racing Tires - TQ Wire - Solaris Racing Tires - Side Piece Racing

180 and 360 Raceway. Best on the East Coast. Take your pick
L.Fairtrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
World GT Club Racing - To spec or not to spec is the question???? Mr. McGoo Electric On-Road 722 11-01-2014 07:05 AM
Traxxas Slash spec class racing at Ryde in 2009 and beyond Roman Australian Racing 2293 02-20-2013 06:18 AM
U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing squarehead Electric On-Road 14187 03-21-2012 02:43 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 12:37 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net