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Old 02-23-2011, 08:08 PM   #226
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I agree with the stability comments, right now it's a dogs breakfast of rules around the countries and world, I know in Australia right now we have different rules in like every state, it will be a year when just about every formula is tested though, so some good may come of it.
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:55 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
Sensorless motors sometimes stutter from a dead stop and will often spin backwards after impaling a wall while still on-throttle.
assuming that can be solved... it removes the boost "problem" surely
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:39 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by chris_dono View Post
assuming that can be solved... it removes the boost "problem" surely
Well no, you can still have boost with sensorless. It will eliminate physical timing from the motor.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:56 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
I do find it very entertaining that we're spending this much time and energy for the sportsman class.
That would be because that is where and by who the money is spent by.
equation very simple
equation 1: Where is 90% of the revenue
new and/or existing sportsman: purchase new stuff * number of new or existing racers = revenue.

equation 2: where small fraction of revenue or break even
Fast guy/Mod, etc
Fastguy/Mod, etc: usually equals someone who is sponsored or has breaks....not many on their own dime.
=purchase minimal*number of participants (small group)=pretty low margin.

How many speedos do you sell to "Joe the Plumber" compared to the Mod group.
last I saw...just about everyone was running a TEKIN in sportsman or blinky where in Mod is was a mix of LRP, Tekin, etc.etc...
I myself have 3 RS pro's, absolutely the best product out there. shameless plug for Tekin
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:59 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
As a racer everyone must accept that THEY are the reason they're not going as fast as Driver X. It has little to NOTHING to do with what equipment he/she has that is allowing them to win.
beg to differ... gave one of the locals from my track my D3 that I ran in the "B" main in 17.5 spec at the birds for his sportsman main. he had bought a D3 from the store that week and ran it. I had bought mine a while back and dynoed it on my turbo dyno and it was the best of the 3 D3s that I had by 500rpm at high and low toque loads which was a 4% advantage. told him to gear the same as I was and run it. he went .2 faster in his main and finshed 2nd after putting it off the track. Greg Sharpe called it "stormed up through the back half of the field from his 9th place starting position like a Spanish bull runner" knowing that one motor is faster then the other and having the ability to determine that can make or break you. I know I can go faster with my T3 2011 then my T3R but I still run the T3R at club races so I have the challenge of trying to run it in the top of the "A" main behind EA.
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:47 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
beg to differ... gave one of the locals from my track my D3 that I ran in the "B" main in 17.5 spec at the birds for his sportsman main. he had bought a D3 from the store that week and ran it. I had bought mine a while back and dynoed it on my turbo dyno and it was the best of the 3 D3s that I had by 500rpm at high and low toque loads which was a 4% advantage. told him to gear the same as I was and run it. he went .2 faster in his main and finshed 2nd after putting it off the track. Greg Sharpe called it "stormed up through the back half of the field from his 9th place starting position like a Spanish bull runner" knowing that one motor is faster then the other and having the ability to determine that can make or break you. I know I can go faster with my T3 2011 then my T3R but I still run the T3R at club races so I have the challenge of trying to run it in the top of the "A" main behind EA.
But the point is that he HAD the skill to take advantage of the better motor. If he was bouncing off the boards that motor wouldn't have made a difference other than making him crash faster. So skill still won out in your argument. A good motor and a well setup car are will always be a factor. But without the skill to drive fast, equipment alone won't make you win...I think that was Randy's point. There is a synergistic effect to it all.


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Old 02-24-2011, 02:00 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
beg to differ... gave one of the locals from my track my D3 that I ran in the "B" main in 17.5 spec at the birds for his sportsman main. he had bought a D3 from the store that week and ran it. I had bought mine a while back and dynoed it on my turbo dyno and it was the best of the 3 D3s that I had by 500rpm at high and low toque loads which was a 4% advantage. told him to gear the same as I was and run it. he went .2 faster in his main and finshed 2nd after putting it off the track. Greg Sharpe called it "stormed up through the back half of the field from his 9th place starting position like a Spanish bull runner" knowing that one motor is faster then the other and having the ability to determine that can make or break you. I know I can go faster with my T3 2011 then my T3R but I still run the T3R at club races so I have the challenge of trying to run it in the top of the "A" main behind EA.
Yes but you failed to mention that he also went from his setup for the race to copying my setup (Pauls setup really) that we were running there and putting that on his car Sat night. So I am going to go out on a limb and say that that .2 was from setup...not 500 extra RPM!

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Old 02-24-2011, 02:19 PM   #233
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It was both, but I have to say that car handled like a dream..
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:25 PM   #234
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My point is that the equipment doesn't drive itself. It still takes the skill of the driver to setup and drive the damn car.



You cannot "boost" a sensorless motor, you're physically limited to motor design. This is fact. There is only so much added timing that can be done due to the physical design of the motor itself.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:18 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
Well no, you can still have boost with sensorless. It will eliminate physical timing from the motor.
not 100% sure on the details, but I think you have that backwards.. physical timing is the only way of applying timing to a sensorless motor and there's a very limited amount that can be done.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:11 PM   #236
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drags out soapbox

I still think we're missing the core point of this argument. We need to figure out how to maintain the group of racers we currently have, while still being able to attract new participants.

The track I raced at last weekend has been averaging 70 entries per weekend under the current structure. This in a portion of the country that has less than massive population density. 70 racer turnouts for on-road in Indiana and Ohio, really haven't been seen in ten or so years. All of these racers are of differeing experience/talent levels. So it seems in theory to be working out quite well. They have VTA, Blinky TC, and 12th scale classes, as well as mini coopers, and I believe what they call a bomber class. It's a TOP-NOTCH facility with excellent race management. Several of my locals race at our place on Saturday, then head there to run Sunday. So the current regs can't be all that bad, can they?

What I've noticed at my track, and at others is the environment of the venue can make or break a novice's experience. The classes for a novice are already there, (i.e. VTA, and Mini). What we need is a greater number of accessible "fast guys" to help shrink the learning curve. If a guy starts in VTA, learns to drive, and tune a chassis, then when he steps up to 17.5 TC, all he really needs to do is slightly expand the driving/set-up knowledge he's learned from VTA, and begin to learn the ropes of building power.

We as racers will ALWAYS be looking for more power, the more you spec it, the blacker the art becomes. It really doesn't matter what direction the rules take anymore IMO. As long as we as On_Road racers continue to make our segment of the sport seem like a "members only" club, we'll continue to discourage new folks from joining us.

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Old 02-25-2011, 02:38 AM   #237
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This product is a white elephant. We already know an esc can advance and retard timing on the fly at all rpm's regardless of the sensor position.

The better option would be for the esc to be intergrated and sealed into the motor. 30 turn slotless delta wind would be smooth and cool.
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:09 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by chris_dono View Post
not 100% sure on the details, but I think you have that backwards.. physical timing is the only way of applying timing to a sensorless motor and there's a very limited amount that can be done.
Physical timing is the relationship between the sensor and the stator. If the sensor isn't being used (as in sensorless operation) then there is no physical timing. You can move the endbell all you want, nothing is going to change.
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:13 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
drags out soapbox

I still think we're missing the core point of this argument. We need to figure out how to maintain the group of racers we currently have, while still being able to attract new participants.

The track I raced at last weekend has been averaging 70 entries per weekend under the current structure. This in a portion of the country that has less than massive population density. 70 racer turnouts for on-road in Indiana and Ohio, really haven't been seen in ten or so years. All of these racers are of differeing experience/talent levels. So it seems in theory to be working out quite well. They have VTA, Blinky TC, and 12th scale classes, as well as mini coopers, and I believe what they call a bomber class. It's a TOP-NOTCH facility with excellent race management. Several of my locals race at our place on Saturday, then head there to run Sunday. So the current regs can't be all that bad, can they?

What I've noticed at my track, and at others is the environment of the venue can make or break a novice's experience. The classes for a novice are already there, (i.e. VTA, and Mini). What we need is a greater number of accessible "fast guys" to help shrink the learning curve. If a guy starts in VTA, learns to drive, and tune a chassis, then when he steps up to 17.5 TC, all he really needs to do is slightly expand the driving/set-up knowledge he's learned from VTA, and begin to learn the ropes of building power.

We as racers will ALWAYS be looking for more power, the more you spec it, the blacker the art becomes. It really doesn't matter what direction the rules take anymore IMO. As long as we as On_Road racers continue to make our segment of the sport seem like a "members only" club, we'll continue to discourage new folks from joining us.

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Nicely put, especially the "members only" comment.
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:14 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
Physical timing is the relationship between the sensor and the stator. If the sensor isn't being used (as in sensorless operation) then there is no physical timing. You can move the endbell all you want, nothing is going to change.
i believe that with sensorless there is an 'advance' function in software. they must be sensing the back EMF (or some electrical property that i don't really understand) to gauge rotor location.
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