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Old 02-22-2011, 10:54 PM   #211
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That's Why I like the rules back in the old brushed motor days.. You got 27T stock, 19T spec and modified... It's pretty simple back in the day you choose a class based on your skill level..

Brushless saved On-road class but it seems like it's beginning to kill this class pretty soon if ROAR dnt set a rule. Their is so many brushless class everyone is getting confused which to run.
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:03 PM   #212
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Some guys are making this harder than it has to be. I like the idea of a fixed timing motor, but how do you get the guys to not "tune" them??? Well, I offer this solution. Instead of having the end caps removable, how about seal them??? A few tack welds and you are done. Make bearing carriers to allow the bearings to be changed from the outside of the motor. BAM, no more tuning. Best thing you can do is install ceramic bearings.

Only thing that would suck is the inability to change the rotor if it becomes damaged at all.
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:17 AM   #213
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Why does a spec motor need to constructed from a billet. Why not a stamped steel can like the speed passion V2 whatever motors. Why would you even need bearings supporting the rotor. Near had bearings in 27T stockers from the past.....wouldn't bushings work for this application? With no bearings to mess with, you could do a sealed motor. Whats there to wear out. Don't have no comm to cut anymore. Blow that sucker out with motor cleaned, oil the bushings and go.... I think a spec motor could be sold for under 40 bucks if you would trim some extras that aren't really needed. I know the speed passion motors sell for like 40 bucks.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:27 AM   #214
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I do feel that people are choosing to overstate how much difference there was between brushed stock motors in order to support their argument against non-boost classes.

We have a few respected tuners contributing to this thread and I'm sure they would tell you that beyond selecting a good brush and spring, there was no special "selection" of the motors that they were giving to the sponsored drivers.

The manufacturing tolerances were sufficiently tight that there were very few "bad" motors in a batch, and no "expectional". 95% of them would have been very similar in performance after a quick going over with an experienced eye.

As ever, the fast guys were fast because of their driving. If they looked quick on the straight, it was because they were quick through the corner before it.

And with brushless, there aren't even any brushes and springs to worry about. The tolerances on the motors are so close that the tuning market simply does not exist in the way it did with brushed.

If people want to overgear their motors and kill them, go for it. You can kill a motor with a boosted ESC too. Seems like a waste of money when an overgeared motor won't be fast for 5 minutes anyway.

It all comes down to driving. And if you don't like no-timing rules, run mod, or find a timed class. Somehow I think you might be a bit lonely come next season.

Personally speaking, I'll be running non-timed at every given opportunity. And many of the people I talk to trackside will be doing the same, because the timing issue has taken the class in the wrong direction. It might look like fun in the top heat, with inch-perfect lines and ballistic top end, but the bottom heats are carnage, and I don't think I would have stayed in the hobby for this long if my first racing experience had been being shovelled off the end of the straight by a boosted car, and my first pit experience had been trying to decipher 15 different settings for the speed controller.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:33 AM   #215
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i think you are somewhat off base. I was at the birds and saw many D3 run on a dyno and there was quite a bit of difference. i think i saw as much as 1500 to 2000rpm difference between a "good" and a 'bad".

But I guarantee that in the brush days, there was quite a bit more black magic to getting a motor to sing.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:35 AM   #216
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i think you are somewhat off base. I was at the birds and saw many D3 run on a dyno and there was quite a bit of difference. i think i saw as much as 1500 to 2000rpm difference between a "good" and a 'bad".

But I guarantee that in the brush days, there was quite a bit more black magic to getting a motor to sing.
RPM doesn't mean much. Got any power readings from those dyno runs? Got readings from 20+ motors?
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:38 AM   #217
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RPM doesn't mean much. Got any power readings from those dyno runs? Got readings from 20+ motors?
yup, i got to see more then that at the birds. all on the same turbo dyno. all run with the same torque setting. it was the most used dyno there

i even saw motors straight out of the package. and then again after they had been tweaked. huge difference. also depends on who does the tweaking

even more to the fact. I was able to see on track performace before and after and laptime to back up the dyno reading. all from some of the top A main guys

one more thing, i did get to see the difference sensor board made to power and rpm reading. it was truely an learning experience.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:05 AM   #218
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I'm not here to say there's no place for non-boosted classes. I AM saying that it would be a mistake to go strictly timing class, or no timing class.

Bottom line is that the genie is out of the bottle, and with that, people's comfort levels have changed, which is fine.

I would rather, personally, run boosted classes and still be slow, with a motor that runs 120-130F after a hard 6 minute race.

Others have a comfort level with non-boosted classes.

The class dilution comes into play because everyone has differing thoughts about the proper speed for "stock" style racing.

Wake up, we haven't raced pure "stock" motors since the 80's! As soon as purpose built motors for RC racing came to the market, the definition of "stock" was long lost. There's still some classes out there that run silver can johnsons or mubachis, and we don't call them "stock", and haven't for a long while.

Everyone gets hung up on what "stock" should be, and the short answer is that it doesn't exist. The closest thing we have now is 2wd Slash that comes with a cheap 13T brushed motor and factory electronics. No TC manufacturer on the market has a public offering with any electronics that we would consider suitable for "stock" racing.

Adding to the dilution are TC classes that are defined by the bodies they run, and corresponding power rules. These classes have a huge following, and good turnouts. This is a good thing! My issue with these classes fall into the single brand requirements on things like motors, and in some cases ESCs. Spec tires don't thrill me, but I can accept them.

On the flip side, ROAR is testing the waters on rules, and we have people from both camps trying to decide on the "single" formula that's going to save onroad TC [1/12 is doing just fine from what I can see]. I don't think a single class is going to cure things. Stability will certainly help, but I fail to see why the model that's worked so well for 1/12 is being overlooked in TC.

17.5 Non-boosted "Stock"
17.5 [maybe 13.5 or 10.5 on asphalt, depending on the track] Boosted "Super Stock"
Open Mod

I say set up the classes, freeze the rules for 2 years [an eternity in RC it seems], and let's see where we get with some stability.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:28 AM   #219
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yup, i got to see more then that at the birds. all on the same turbo dyno. all run with the same torque setting. it was the most used dyno there
non-boosted == dyno racing. happy happy, joy joy
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:38 AM   #220
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Is physical timing on the motors really that big a deal? I get trying to tamper proof the winds, but what's the problem with physical timing? If it's adjustable, you don't have to worry if someone's motor has more timing than yours, or whatever.
I think the physical timing plays more into the overall efficiency of the motor, and thus your gearing. A D3 motor can go from zero to hero by a very small adjustment of the end bell.

Unfortunately/fortunately no one sells a good brushless dyno today -- the best bet is to get a used Turbo 45 (if you can find one), add on a servo tester and a brushless speedo. you'll also need to dig up your old comm lathe to fix up your slave motor's comm.
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:28 AM   #221
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As a racer everyone must accept that THEY are the reason they're not going as fast as Driver X. It has little to NOTHING to do with what equipment he/she has that is allowing them to win.

The top guys simply have more natural talent, more time to practice, are more dedicated than you are, are better at setting up their equipment.

Personally when I'm racing some of the top guys at a race I know that 99% of the time I"m the "slow" part of the winning equation in my racing program.

Tighter motor rules may be PART of the equation to fix whatever issue(s) Onroad is having, but it is only that........a part.

There are two arguments that NEED to be seperated here. Slowing the cars down for SPORTSMAN and simplifying the Onroad PROGRAM for newbies. I do find it very entertaining that we're spending this much time and energy for the sportsman class.

27T classes in my area we still seperated by the same gap as the brushless classes are now. There are those that can tune a brushed motor and those that cannot. Same goes for brushless.

We already have blinky mode for those that want to run the class. However I will point out that this "class" will once again make the same mistakes we made years ago: motor of the month, batteries charged at questionable levels.


"With will all due respect" Ricky Bobby voice:

I suggest thinking outside the box and looking for a complete solution, not just chipping away at it like a bunch of trained monkeys(no offense intended)
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:35 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
As a racer everyone must accept that THEY are the reason they're not going as fast as Driver X. It has little to NOTHING to do with what equipment he/she has that is allowing them to win.

The top guys simply have more natural talent, more time to practice, are more dedicated than you are, are better at setting up their equipment.)
You are killing me. Go ahead and say the stuff thats hard to face up to. Say what we dont want to hear. If I just had that motor or battery you know I would have won.

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27T classes in my area we still seperated by the same gap as the brushless classes are now. There are those that can tune a brushed motor and those that cannot. Same goes for brushless. )
As a member of the those who cannot club, I am personally grateful that a well tuned brushless motor if not pushed too hard will have a much longer life expectancy than a brushed motor.
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:38 PM   #223
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I still really have a hard time understanding why brushless motors dont last forever, but man, look at what we make them do.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:00 PM   #224
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What about removing the sensor from the equation...
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:15 PM   #225
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What about removing the sensor from the equation...
Sensorless motors sometimes stutter from a dead stop and will often spin backwards after impaling a wall while still on-throttle.
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