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Old 02-15-2011, 02:30 AM   #1
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Default Totally confused o.O

Hello everyone,

First of all, im sorry if i make a new thread that some people might find pointless, but it seems like my answer is nowhere acurate or on google, nor this forum...
Iv been looking on the speed passion thred, LRP *** thread, and many others, but scrolling through 10 pages to gather some info is abit anoying especially when the answer isnt there.

My question is : What is timing ? What does timing do on a BL motor, i heard there is motor timing, and ESC timing, what are the difference, and whats the difference between neg timing or positiv timing ?
At last : What are the advantages on software upgrades, i also heard that there was something called " supercharger/boost/turbo ", what do they do ?
People also say that " they increase timing as far as rpm goes higher, what is the advantage of all these things...

Thank you very much, hope someone could clear things for me
Cheers
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:10 AM   #2
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Below is my 2ct opinion of what timing and turbo is...

You have to imagine a brushless motor from the inside. There you have the 3 coils. At the back shield there are 3 sensors at the same position off the coils.

In order to turn the motor you have to *fire* each coil in a turning sequence. The esc knows where your rotor is because of the sensors. If you run at 0 degrees of timing, the esc will enable the coil exactly at the point when the sensor says that the rotor has arrived there (by arrived, I mean the rotors magnetic pole).

If you *time* the motor you simply enable the coil before the rotor is at the coil position. This has a great performance boost, but generates a lot of heat at lower rpm. The solution is to lower the timing at lower rpm and increase it when the rpm goes up (Dynamic).

There is no basic difference in esc or motor timing. The esc does it in software, at the motor you simply turn the sensors away from the coils to get the same effect. There is little use to time at the motor since you can do it more flexible and dynamic in the esc.

With turbo you set a certain delay. This delay starts from the moment you are at full throttle. Once the delay has passed (for example, 0.3 seconds) the esc starts to ad even more advance timing. Normally you set the delay in a way that it only kicks in at the long strait of the track.

Hardware wise there is not a lot you can do to make a esc. You have 3 outputs to enable the coils, and 3 inputs the measure where the magnetic field of the rotor is. All the difference is made in software. The software algorithm that takes care of timing and turbo is where one gains the most advantage these days. That is why software updates are important.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmellipse View Post
Below is my 2ct opinion of what timing and turbo is...

You have to imagine a brushless motor from the inside. There you have the 3 coils. At the back shield there are 3 sensors at the same position off the coils.

In order to turn the motor you have to *fire* each coil in a turning sequence. The esc knows where your rotor is because of the sensors. If you run at 0 degrees of timing, the esc will enable the coil exactly at the point when the sensor says that the rotor has arrived there (by arrived, I mean the rotors magnetic pole).

If you *time* the motor you simply enable the coil before the rotor is at the coil position. This has a great performance boost, but generates a lot of heat at lower rpm. The solution is to lower the timing at lower rpm and increase it when the rpm goes up (Dynamic).

There is no basic difference in esc or motor timing. The esc does it in software, at the motor you simply turn the sensors away from the coils to get the same effect. There is little use to time at the motor since you can do it more flexible and dynamic in the esc.

With turbo you set a certain delay. This delay starts from the moment you are at full throttle. Once the delay has passed (for example, 0.3 seconds) the esc starts to ad even more advance timing. Normally you set the delay in a way that it only kicks in at the long strait of the track.

Hardware wise there is not a lot you can do to make a esc. You have 3 outputs to enable the coils, and 3 inputs the measure where the magnetic field of the rotor is. All the difference is made in software. The software algorithm that takes care of timing and turbo is where one gains the most advantage these days. That is why software updates are important.
Wow !!
All this explanation has cleared things up for me by a lot .
But I still am a little bit confused xD ....
So what your saying is that timing increases performance at higher rpm, but during slow turning, it only creates another more heat ? Am I getting you right ?
So the turbo delay is an instruction to the ESC to apply the timing later or earlier ?

So let's say that the track I'm on is very tight but with a extremely long straight, if I put max timing, the motor would be fast down the straight but slower in the infield AND it will produce more heat in the infield ?
Am I right ?
Is this when you apply the turbo delay so that the motor doesnt lose performance in the infield ( because the timing won't be applied before let's say, 0.3 sec ) but down the straight it will be applied to make the motor quicker.
Have I understood everything well ?

Also, what is the difference between -10 deg timing and +26.25 deg timing ?
Why dont people always run max timing to increase performance ?

Thanks
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:54 AM   #4
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go 4 stock racing (fixed esc and motor)
later go 4 modified

and forget about
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclone speed View Post
Wow !!
All this explanation has cleared things up for me by a lot .
But I still am a little bit confused xD ....
So what your saying is that timing increases performance at higher rpm, but during slow turning, it only creates another more heat ? Am I getting you right ?
So the turbo delay is an instruction to the ESC to apply the timing later or earlier ? Its a delay so its telling it to wait. That lets you build a little RPM before dumping on the heavy boost. They call it turbo because it acts like one.

So let's say that the track I'm on is very tight but with a extremely long straight, if I put max timing, the motor would be fast down the straight but slower in the infield AND it will produce more heat in the infield ?
Am I right ? If you are talking about straight timing and not dynamic timing then yes. Thats what it will do.
Is this when you apply the turbo delay so that the motor doesnt lose performance in the infield ( because the timing won't be applied before let's say, 0.3 sec ) but down the straight it will be applied to make the motor quicker.
Have I understood everything well ? Thats pretty close. Yes.

Also, what is the difference between -10 deg timing and +26.25 deg timing ? Negative timing will retard the forward performance of the motor.
Why dont people always run max timing to increase performance ? You lose a little torque with full time timing and you add heat to it. Which is a waste of motor and for that matter battery. With Turbo you have the best of both worlds. The punch from no timing with the RPM top end of having timing.

Thanks
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
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Responses in Blue.
Ohhhh so in a few words, the software updates with the turbo/supercharger ... allow to compensate and give more power down the straight ( or at slow rpm ) without sacrificing the other end ( the lower rpm or the top speed ) and without producing useless heat ?

Last thing, whats the difference in straight timing and dynamic , sorry lol ...
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclone speed View Post
Ohhhh so in a few words, the software updates with the turbo/supercharger ... allow to compensate and give more power down the straight ( or at slow rpm ) without sacrificing the other end ( the lower rpm or the top speed ) and without producing useless heat ?

Last thing, whats the difference in straight timing and dynamic , sorry lol ...
Straight or fixed timing means the timing stays constant throughout the RPM range. Dynamic timing means the timing increases as the RPMs increase.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:48 AM   #8
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Straight or fixed timing means the timing stays constant throughout the RPM range. Dynamic timing means the timing increases as the RPMs increase.
Ok thanks, but dynamic timing can only be adjusted on the newer ESC's, or by updating the firmware ?
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:00 AM   #9
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Forgive the snide comment but... "And we wonder why TC racing is in decline !!!" This thread is a poster child example.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:02 AM   #10
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Ok thanks, but dynamic timing can only be adjusted on the newer ESC's, or by updating the firmware ?
Yep.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:06 AM   #11
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Forgive the snide comment but... "And we wonder why TC racing is in decline !!!" This thread is a poster child example.
I disagree. Cyclone seems to be grasping the concept just fine. What we need to do is do our best to explain the new technology in a clear and concise manner. These boards aren't always easy to navigate so I know I will try my best to bring people along and share what knowledge I have.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:18 AM   #12
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Sorry Steve. Really shouldn't have commented. Just one of those moments. As a race director I have to deal with way to many folks who have a hard enough time driving the car and spending time on suspension setups. Then there's the peer pressure group constantly harping on the " well, if you want to be fast you've got to buy this esc or that motor" mentality.
Again, my apologies. Cyclone, if you're at the level of proficiency that you can truly appreciate and utilize the technology, I wish you the best. My comment wasn't directed at you.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:44 AM   #13
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I find setting up a boosted ESC like a Tekin RS to be about the simplest part of setting up my touring car. Every other aspect of the car setup is far more difficult to get right.

Boosted ESCs are not bringing down the hobby. A lack of affordable cars that can be raced competitively right out of the box might have something to do with it, but honestly, this hobby is simply not for everyone. You have to know a lot to set up a car that can perform well and then know how to drive it. The ESC setup is a very small aspect. Many people just are not willing to take the time to learn it all. Don't blame technology for people's willful ignorance.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:51 AM   #14
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Again, sorry for the rant. No sense highjacking Cyclone's thread. He sounds like he's starting to understand and has plenty of help.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:16 AM   #15
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Coming back to the thread title, I went on the hobywing thread and read loads, I now understand what are the effects, how it works, and what to do, and especially thanks to the people explaining. So right now im fine and i understand clearly.

Evoracer, to answer you, I might sound like a child beging for help but to be honnest, im just trying to get as much as knowledge as possible on the smaller aspects as locked said, but i really enjoy RC racing, and i recently got a TRF417 which i raced last week and the changes i did were actually making a difference to the car's handling, so for the past few month, iv'e been improving quite well ( not being modest ) and understanding the cars aspects quite quickly, I just thought that instead of staying at home doing nothing, ,I could try to understand more of the stuff, pure curiosity because I dont have those programing card ( expensive stuff ) ...
Anyway, i just wanted to let you know why i started this thread more or less, but as im saying, sorry for any " childish " behavior which i totally understand on your side.

Thanks again to everyone, and Evoracer dont take the comment in a bad way, its just a reply
Cheers again
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