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Old 01-16-2011, 06:04 PM   #16
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Toolman, who are you? PM me if you want to. I'm Jerib from the Ruapuna club.

Last weekend a friend and I ran at another club, which we hadn't run before, and we are both very similar skill level (average). I ran Silvercan 4.05 FDR, he ran LRP 21.5 with the timing up and 3.65 FDR. Both cars were IDENTICAL speed on the back straight.

Results were:
Qual 1 21.5=2nd, SC=3rd
Qual 2 21.5=2nd, SC=3rd
Qual 3 SC=2nd, 21.5=3rd
Final 1 21.5=2nd, SC=3rd
Final 2 SC=2nd, 21.5=4th

There were 6-8 cars on the track, so a little traffic to negotiate, but impressive comparison I recon. 1st place was an SC all day.

The only proviso here is that the 21.5 could be geared up a whole lot more, but then so could the SC, i'd jsut have to have a few spares on hand
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:16 PM   #17
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Hey Jerib its Dave from Dunedin here, yep great days racing really enjoyed the comparison between the SC and brushless, btw I was geared at 4-0 flat all day so yea at this stage the old SC can still cut it.

My real concern as you yourself raised with brushless is the variation in motor power between brands. I know Darren was running the Tamiya but are other 21.5s equal to or better in performance.

hence my posting here to try and get a concensus, I would hate to see a good class falter because it became a manufacturers motor war.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:01 PM   #18
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We are working on a fun VTA/GT type class here but wanted it to be easily accessible to new drivers. With early testing on our tight track 21.5 brushless seems to be pretty close to an average silver can. The brushless stuff looks like it can be geared much taller, but with the lack of traction provided with the D compound HPI tires and a possible FDR limit, it appears that silver can and non boost 21.5 can share the track quite evenly.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:44 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by JR007 View Post
Toolman, who are you? PM me if you want to. I'm Jerib from the Ruapuna club.

Last weekend a friend and I ran at another club, which we hadn't run before, and we are both very similar skill level (average). I ran Silvercan 4.05 FDR, he ran LRP 21.5 with the timing up and 3.65 FDR. Both cars were IDENTICAL speed on the back straight.

Results were:
Qual 1 21.5=2nd, SC=3rd
Qual 2 21.5=2nd, SC=3rd
Qual 3 SC=2nd, 21.5=3rd
Final 1 21.5=2nd, SC=3rd
Final 2 SC=2nd, 21.5=4th

There were 6-8 cars on the track, so a little traffic to negotiate, but impressive comparison I recon. 1st place was an SC all day.

The only proviso here is that the 21.5 could be geared up a whole lot more, but then so could the SC, i'd jsut have to have a few spares on hand
in my opinion the silvercan is overgeared and the 21.5 is undergeared. but that was with only two rounds of testing 21.5 on my part, I ran a 3.06 on the 21.5
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:56 PM   #20
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We are working on a fun VTA/GT type class here but wanted it to be easily accessible to new drivers. With early testing on our tight track 21.5 brushless seems to be pretty close to an average silver can. The brushless stuff looks like it can be geared much taller, but with the lack of traction provided with the D compound HPI tires and a possible FDR limit, it appears that silver can and non boost 21.5 can share the track quite evenly.
Thanks for the input cwazyduck, Sounds promising unfotunately at the two oudoor tracks within driving distance of me they are both large tracks.
ie (65 metre and 85 metre straights) so how do you think the silvercan would fare against a 21.5 brushless geared to the moon.

I know the one I raced against at the weekend geared at 3.65 FDR came off the track very cool hardly any heat at all. whereas my Silvercan was sitting around 50 - 55 deg c geared at 4-0 FDR.

Obviously the silvercan was nearing its limit but the brushless theoretically still had plenty left.
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Old 01-16-2011, 08:00 PM   #21
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in my opinion the silvercan is overgeared and the 21.5 is undergeared. but that was with only two rounds of testing 21.5 on my part, I ran a 3.06 on the 21.5
Hey skypilot, so geared at 3-06 FDR i would have to assume the 21.5 would eat the Silvercan
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:11 PM   #22
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Probably the reason for resistance to go brushless for stock regardless of the rules is because there are so many choices and its easy for someone to come along with something slightly faster. If it were a controlled motor and esc like the Speed Passion Cirtrix Combo then I'm sure it would take off really quick and be a hit.

If there was only one choice it would be simple to let the newbie know all he has to do is buy this combo and have as much speed as anyone else. Basically its too complicated with too many options otherwise.

Its great that if you do have a motor failure with your silver can, you can just go down to the local shop and buy one for $35 or so.

When you look at the national scene most of the clubs are in the North Island. The International race was held recently and was very popular. There were 40 cars in touring stock, 19 in Mini and 17 in F1 all using silver can. There will surely be even more entrants at the nationals in these classes.

Given the popularity of silver can racing I would think it would be not wise to change the current rules. Everyone agrees lipo was a big step forward in these classes though.

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Old 01-17-2011, 11:01 AM   #23
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I think that is the prevailing view. The weekend racing was great, but that was mates racing together, and Darren wouldn't have geared through the roof just to win (well he would, but only to take the piss)

I like the Citrix idea over anything else, but the problem is, not many of the suppliers stock that brand, and you (Mike) saw the drama when we tried to take NiCad's away from our local supplier!

BTW, better keep practicing Dave, i'm coming to get you at the Clash
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Old 01-17-2011, 12:39 PM   #24
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I think that is the prevailing view. The weekend racing was great, but that was mates racing together, and Darren wouldn't have geared through the roof just to win (well he would, but only to take the piss)

I like the Citrix idea over anything else, but the problem is, not many of the suppliers stock that brand, and you (Mike) saw the drama when we tried to take NiCad's away from our local supplier!

BTW, better keep practicing Dave, i'm coming to get you at the Clash
And that in a nutshell is my concern if we decide to run both together. We will see have to introduce more rules for the scrutineers to check.

1) check the blinky light
2) check the gearing (what a nightmare with all the different internal ratios)
3) check motor brand?

at the end of the day change is inevitable but i think it has to be done right.

I like brushless as a system lower maintenance and can be very even if introduced correctly, but I dont believe the two could run together evenly without the above measures in place

As Mike said above it is nice to be able to run down to the local hobby shop and buy another motor, plus there are a huge amount of brushed speedos out there at very reasonable prices.

So basically if it aint broke why fix it !

anyway Back on topic would still like to hear from others if and how brushless has been introduced with silvercan.

btw Jerib looking forward to next time at the clash bring it on
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:11 PM   #25
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With our club in Tasmania we run this
21.5/ 540 silvercan called pro tourer, this is our start level class ,it is a non timed class but we do allow timed speedys to run in this class with the appropriate non timed software, 0 timing ,eg hobywing extreme stock. We do give the racers an element of trust not to do the wrong thing, if someone is relatively faster than the rest there is ways to check. We allow 2 brands of brushless motors in this class which are available from the hobbyshops that support our club.
The reason we allow these speedies is that then they can move up to our next class which is 21.5 open
that way the racer has no extra gear to buy but can then step up to the next speed level, just download the appropriate programme, which is stored on our clubs computer.
From there it is 13.5 open then mod
we feel this gives a smaller gap between the starting point of racing to the next level, and all without having to spend extra dollars
brushed is fast becoming a dying breed and the low maintenance of brushless motors is appealing to all
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:28 PM   #26
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With our club in Tasmania we run this
21.5/ 540 silvercan called pro tourer, this is our start level class ,it is a non timed class but we do allow timed speedys to run in this class with the appropriate non timed software, 0 timing ,eg hobywing extreme stock. We do give the racers an element of trust not to do the wrong thing, if someone is relatively faster than the rest there is ways to check. We allow 2 brands of brushless motors in this class which are available from the hobbyshops that support our club.
The reason we allow these speedies is that then they can move up to our next class which is 21.5 open
that way the racer has no extra gear to buy but can then step up to the next speed level, just download the appropriate programme, which is stored on our clubs computer.
From there it is 13.5 open then mod
we feel this gives a smaller gap between the starting point of racing to the next level, and all without having to spend extra dollars
brushed is fast becoming a dying breed and the low maintenance of brushless motors is appealing to all
Lee
Hi Lee,

So what are the two motors you are using, and do you put a gearing cap on them? going from previous posts the 21.50 will still have an advantage if geared higher as i believe they have more torque, correct me if im wrong.

Thanks for the input Lee
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:55 PM   #27
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Thanks for the input cwazyduck, Sounds promising unfotunately at the two oudoor tracks within driving distance of me they are both large tracks.
ie (65 metre and 85 metre straights) so how do you think the silvercan would fare against a 21.5 brushless geared to the moon.

I know the one I raced against at the weekend geared at 3.65 FDR came off the track very cool hardly any heat at all. whereas my Silvercan was sitting around 50 - 55 deg c geared at 4-0 FDR.

Obviously the silvercan was nearing its limit but the brushless theoretically still had plenty left.
We are running on a tight indoor track set up mainly for 12th scale so right now my car is geared at 4.78 FDR and the silver can guys are right with me. I can see once the out door season starts and larger tracks that the gearing options of the brushless will walk away from the silver cans. I guess the only real answer would be to limit the FDR on the brushless to keep the silver cans competitive, but I'm not too sure where that limit should be set at.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:45 AM   #28
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Hi Lee,

So what are the two motors you are using, and do you put a gearing cap on them? going from previous posts the 21.50 will still have an advantage if geared higher as i believe they have more torque, correct me if im wrong.

Thanks for the input Lee
the two motors are speed passion 21.5 V3 and Tekin redline 21.5
we dont have a gearing cap as such as most changed over to brushless as soon as it was legal
the few that are left were on a relative pace, but even they are looking to change over.
the biggest problem we have always had with the silvercan is the huge difference between a good and a bad motor.
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:01 AM   #29
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the two motors are speed passion 21.5 V3 and Tekin redline 21.5
we dont have a gearing cap as such as most changed over to brushless as soon as it was legal
the few that are left were on a relative pace, but even they are looking to change over.
the biggest problem we have always had with the silvercan is the huge difference between a good and a bad motor.
I can see a similar thing happening with our program, most ppl will be jumping on the 21.5 wagon and with tighter tracks the different motors should appear more equal. I think the biggest thing though, is the attitude of most of our guys looking into this class, and what we have to do to keep everyone one a fair and level playing field.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:29 PM   #30
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I can see a similar thing happening with our program, most ppl will be jumping on the 21.5 wagon and with tighter tracks the different motors should appear more equal. I think the biggest thing though, is the attitude of most of our guys looking into this class, and what we have to do to keep everyone one a fair and level playing field.
Definately agree with you there about about peoples attitude , but for us here as a small club keeping and getting new members is vital. Just this year we changed our rules to open Batteries in all classes, personally I thought it was great no more nimh or nicad battery maintenance......but for me it wasnt a big deal as i already had run lipos for a year and had the charger, lipo sack, and so on.

But I Know for some at our club it was a lot to get there heads around, what lipos to get, where to get them, a new charger, and also most in the stock class here only have brushed escs so no lipo cutoff, It was probably a big step for some and a reasonable outlay of cash for 12 race meetings a year.

So for what its worth I think the introduction of Brushless to our stock class too soon will scare quite a few away. For me its not to big a problem but for the Dad with 2 kids running, thats 2 new escs and motors just to stay competitive.Probably too big an outlay to stay.

So back to the Question can we keep the silvercan competitive with Bushless keep the feedback coming.

Cheers

Dave Hodgins DRECC
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