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Old 05-26-2011, 12:54 PM   #631
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IMO, 12th scale rules should have been locked in from 2010. Open ESC, single-cell, 17.5, 13.5, and Mod.

TC rules could probably use some tweaking, because when LIPO happened, the TC guys actually GAINED voltage, along with an appreciable decrease in weight. So needless to say, they actually sped up.

The 12th scale guys, LOST voltage, and some weight, so for us it was pretty much a wash. We didn't get faster, and we didn't get slower, we just picked up cornerspeed, and gave up punch off the corner.

These are fundamental differences between these two wildly different chassis types. The great variances in traction, weight, and just plain size, dictate that the power delivery systems should be different as well.

I still vehemently oppose the idea of "spec-only" esc's. Forcing the purchase of more equipment is just not reasonable imo. I understand that you can buy a $60 "spec-only" speedo now, but it has already been mentioned that it won't run with the "blinky-mode" programmable speedos. How can this be possible if both speedos are running NON-RAMPING software? Hardware differences perhaps? So, unless ROAR specifies the quality, quantity, and design of EACH MFG's speedo, then you still haven't achieved parity. The whole point is that you NEVER will. Tekin could just release a $149 non-flashable RS, and that vaunted $60 esc becomes a paperweight. Now we're all back to paying for high dollar esc's that have LESS features.

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Old 05-26-2011, 01:48 PM   #632
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I don't think the popularity of SC racing in off-road has anything to do with spec ESCs...it has more to do with the scale appearance. Our local SC class is still our biggest off-road class and it is an OPEN class. People run anywhere from a 17.5 down to an 8.5 and everyone is competitive.

As for needing spec ESCs for a novice class...most places don't even get enough novice drivers to run a novice class. And even when they do the class is quite often short lived as those drivers move on to other classes and very little new blood comes in to replace them. If we must have a novice class and it must be brushless...then blinky ESCs and spec ESCs should run together. Of course this means the spec ESCs would need to be made better but at least it gives the consumer the choice to start out cheap and upgrade later or buy something that is already upgradeable and be competitive with either option.

There is an even more simple answer that could be employed though...stick with silver can racing. If you use a brushed ESC it is cheeper but also most if not all of the higher end brushless ESCs also can run brushed motors and all of the timing advances you can program instantly become moot. So it doesn't matter if you have a brushed ESC, a spec ESC, or even a high end ESC...all will be just as capable as the others.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:57 PM   #633
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Just a quik question

exactly what speedo's out there currently meet the new rule?
other than Novak??

Thankx, Bill
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:58 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by chubbspeterson View Post
With out control, watch SC truck become Onroad sedan racing...it is the direction it is heading. People running those will want to change things, make new parts and upgrade, new classes and so on. It's the path we have been down, if anything it shows that we never learn.
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:03 PM   #635
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I understand that you can buy a $60 "spec-only" speedo now, but it has already been mentioned that it won't run with the "blinky-mode" programmable speedos. How can this be possible if both speedos are running NON-RAMPING software?
That is not correct. The $60 esc runs just fine with the blinky cars unless somebody has some old, non legal software. In fact, some of the $60 esc cars are faster than the blinky cars where I am racing.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:50 PM   #636
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That is not correct. The $60 esc runs just fine with the blinky cars unless somebody has some old, non legal software. In fact, some of the $60 esc cars are faster than the blinky cars where I am racing.
+1

I ran a LRP sphere at my club track and wasn't any faster then I was with my Tekin. and at the Region 5 race in Indy my $350 black diamond got beat by a gtb a havok and a citrix in VTA class and trust me I'm no slow driver. the only thing the different speedo gives is better brakes or smoother throttle and most people, other then maybe blackstock or cyrul, can't tell that difference.
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:04 PM   #637
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I just hope someone at ROAR is reading this. There are a lot of good points being made. The most important point is that us or ROAR needs to figure out how to draw new blood into the hobby. All this of our discussion is about is how not to drive them out or scare them off. Those of us that are hardcore will adapt. $500 to a $1000 dollars to enter the hobby is a lot of cash. The Short Course price of entry is about $300 for a RTR, charger and 1 lipo. All of those are new equipment but most newbies go that way.

Any ideas out there?
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:13 PM   #638
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Sure Ron... HPI makes the Flux 2. It would be perfect for VTA if it came with a VTA compatible ESC/motor, not the one it comes with. Think on-road Slash. There's your beginner class.

1/12, WGT, Stock TC aren't beginner classes, so don't dumb them down.
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:46 PM   #639
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Sure Ron... HPI makes the Flux 2. It would be perfect for VTA if it came with a VTA compatible ESC/motor, not the one it comes with. Think on-road Slash. There's your beginner class.

1/12, WGT, Stock TC aren't beginner classes, so don't dumb them down.
Sure, totaly agree...but there is no 'Beginner class" any of the beginners can choose....Mini cooper, VTA, Spec TC, WGT, Rally, Micro, 1/18 or 1/24, On road SC truck....it's endless.....

Again, the industry has provided people with choices, and everyone makes their own. Nothing can catch on when there is 27 diffrent classes to run...

Just stop....Look at it this way, again, SC Truck is the new TC....

Electric Off-Road, 1/10 Buggy, 1/10 4wd buggy 1/10 Stadium Truck.....

out comes SC Trucks....BAM!!!! to the moon, it catches on...

Electric On-road, 1/12 pan car, 1/10 pan cars.....

out come 4wd TC......BAM!!!! to the moon, it catches on....

Now here is the problem...Classes for these chassis...
Off road does not have, Stock, Stock spec, Boosted, Mod, VTA, "Mongruel?" Mini, Slash Truck, Micro...and so on..or what ever the "class of the week is"
Stock, Mod, maybe and inbetween class, with boost or something...thats it..

The other issue, is VTA, I am not knocking it, but it's TC with a diffrent body and tires...add all those guys back into the mix as well. They did not go anywhere, they are just running a diffrent body, but for some reason we don't count them.

Again, in thge battle to "draw" in new racers, we have to stop with the idea that we can just make something, and everyone will come. It's not a rule change, it's not a new car, or run the layout backwards, or a new body. The beauty is nobody knows what "it" is. Look at large scale racing...F1 huge in Europe....Over here it is Nascar...Off road is HUGE here, because it is like Motocross, and Rally cross, and it is X-treme....Dude, Travis Pastrana is in rally cross....Traxxas is the TITLE sponcer for the Off road truck racing....come on people, the companys that are leading the industry saw this..heck I'm an idiot and I saw it years ago, they are selling the same product, Hey when your not jumping your Kx125, Jump your SC truck, it has the Rockstar paint scheme....Sweet....

Look at how the RC companies are now taking the off road game back overseas...With the money that Monster, and Red bull, and MTV, and all those companies has put into the Xtreme events, it trickles down, all that stuff will be huge in europe, in due time. The RC compaines, again are jumping ahead going after an untaped market that they have no real share of...
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:46 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
Sure Ron... HPI makes the Flux 2. It would be perfect for VTA if it came with a VTA compatible ESC/motor, not the one it comes with. Think on-road Slash. There's your beginner class.

1/12, WGT, Stock TC aren't beginner classes, so don't dumb them down.
Yes, and having a club that is smart enough to get people into a race and encourage them to come back even if the stuff they have or buy isn't 100% compliant is also part of the equation. That guy that shows up to a club race with a stock Flux or any other car that isn't 100% rules complaint shouldn't immediately hear "Hey dude, your car isn't legal. Sorry"
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:29 PM   #641
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What the Slash showed us that in order to get the casual hobbyist into racing, for better or worse, you need:

1) Inexpensive, RTR vehicle (newbies don't build kits)
2) Inexpensive, available parts
3) Bashable, or at least drivable around the street at home
4) Realistic looking
5) Even better, if it would match some class that tracks already run.
6) Advertising in magazines (probably with some claim like 35+ MPH!!!!)
7) It should handle half way decent out of the box.
8) Should be little to no maintenance, since most hobbyists won't wrench on the thing unless it breaks. Brushless helps here.
9) Potentially include a radio, LiPo battery, and charger.
10) Tracks to promote racing where the cars are sold.

It has to be fun, or they won't be back. The hobbyist doesn't know (or care) if the ESC is Spec, or boosted, or whatever. The first question they invariably ask is "how fast is it"?

In order to stop the proliferation of classes, since VTA is most likely the slowest class, having a ESC/motor that is legal will save them from having to upgrade immediately. Or if you get enough of them to show up, instant Novice class. Or run all novices together, regardless of car type. Or if Minis are popular in your area, run 'em.

But, since we're talking proposed ROAR changes here, it should be a class that is compatible with their rules. Should Sportsman adopt VTA rules?
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:23 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by old_dude View Post
I just hope someone at ROAR is reading this. There are a lot of good points being made. The most important point is that us or ROAR needs to figure out how to draw new blood into the hobby. All this of our discussion is about is how not to drive them out or scare them off. Those of us that are hardcore will adapt. $500 to a $1000 dollars to enter the hobby is a lot of cash. The Short Course price of entry is about $300 for a RTR, charger and 1 lipo. All of those are new equipment but most newbies go that way.

Any ideas out there?
Old Dude, I always watch. Not every day, but I'm actively involved in the discussions and like to hear the variety of opinions. I'm trying to make the best decisions for the entire hobby, and I realize that some people will not see it as I do. I take all opinions into consideration, but mostly the ones that take a big picture approach. I appreciated the ones that are based on ""I" and "Me" and "mine," but they're based on one person wanting the rules to suit themselves. I'd rather hear feedback about how the rules can help make racing better, less expensive and more fun for the entire community, which is somewhat different than what we all would personally want for ourselves. I know that if I made everything the way I would personally want it, racing would be a lot more expensive, because I'm a gadget guy and love tweaking on things. But, that wouldn't achieve the aforementioned objectives.

Keep the opinions coming. I respect that some of them might be different than my own. In fact, I'd be really concerned if everyone on this forum started to agree. ;o) This group probably represents the more advanced users, and your perspective changes and you become more experienced and I think some people forget what it's like to be a novice. The late, great Chris Chianelli used to try to pound that into my head when I was fully engrossed in racing and best technology had to offer. He'd shake his head at me while I was dyno tuning motors, and I would shake my head at him and tell him to go play with his monster truck. LOL Truth is, Chris was right in his desire to keep new blood coming into the hobby, and it's a well-rounded person (not me at the time) to realize there needs to be a balance between uber technology that caters to high-end racing, past or present, and keeping the door open and making it inviting and exciting for new people to become involved. Without the latter, there's not going to be a hobby to speak of, and we need to be sure our legacy is that we were able to see past our own ambitions and make our hobby great and strong for years to come. It's with that in mind that I try to do the right thing every day. It may not be apparent to everyone all the time, but I respect that there will be differences of opinion and hope that we will all have the tolerance to know that, with a spirit of compromise and the understanding that we all want what's best for our great hobby, we can all make it better and stronger.

I don't know why, but somehow I think Chianelli is wagging his finger at me and saying, "I told ya so!" ;o)

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Old 05-26-2011, 09:34 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
What the Slash showed us that in order to get the casual hobbyist into racing, for better or worse, you need:

1) Inexpensive, RTR vehicle (newbies don't build kits)
2) Inexpensive, available parts
3) Bashable, or at least drivable around the street at home
4) Realistic looking
5) Even better, if it would match some class that tracks already run.
6) Advertising in magazines (probably with some claim like 35+ MPH!!!!)
7) It should handle half way decent out of the box.
8) Should be little to no maintenance, since most hobbyists won't wrench on the thing unless it breaks. Brushless helps here.
9) Potentially include a radio, LiPo battery, and charger.
10) Tracks to promote racing where the cars are sold.

It has to be fun, or they won't be back. The hobbyist doesn't know (or care) if the ESC is Spec, or boosted, or whatever. The first question they invariably ask is "how fast is it"?

In order to stop the proliferation of classes, since VTA is most likely the slowest class, having a ESC/motor that is legal will save them from having to upgrade immediately. Or if you get enough of them to show up, instant Novice class. Or run all novices together, regardless of car type. Or if Minis are popular in your area, run 'em.

But, since we're talking proposed ROAR changes here, it should be a class that is compatible with their rules. Should Sportsman adopt VTA rules?
I totally agree with the Slash comments.

Should sportsman adopt VTA rules? YES, and it should be called VTA, and promoted as the fun, less-expensive, super close class that many believe it to be. We should be pushing new blood towards this class, as the best point of entry for On-Road. Old cars are still competitive, battery performance is not as vital, There is ZERO choice in motor and speedo. This is a great class to develop some car control, and set-up knowledge, then if you want to step up to a different TC class, or perhaps 12th scale, then you already have a grasp on the basics, so now all you'll have to do is figure out the power aspect.

Plus it's pretty easy to sell VTA to a potential customer when they look up on the stand and see 10 racers duking it out, who all look like they're having a good time, and who will go over and joke with the guy who peeled them during the run, rather than storm off the stand bitching.

This all goes back to the time honored axiom that the dedicated will always be faster than the casual. Easy is fun for some, but not all. Some people actually race for the challenges it presents them.
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:39 PM   #644
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That is not correct. The $60 esc runs just fine with the blinky cars unless somebody has some old, non legal software. In fact, some of the $60 esc cars are faster than the blinky cars where I am racing.
Sorry robk. I was re-reading the thread and saw some older posts stating the the $60 esc wouldn't run with an LRP, TEKIN, or SP programmable. I've never seen any of these $60 escs in person, so I have only the information provided by trusted names like KevinK and yourself to go by. So in this case I defer........

But I still view spec esc's as a bad idea.
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:40 PM   #645
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I don't think you can compare VTA to Slash. Create a out of the box RTR VTA TC and maybe it will be a slash.
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